e-mails about qsl's : HC-DX 1

HC-DX 02 Index

[HCDX]: Countries list & [HCDX]: Country List Debate

From: 	Daniele Canonica
Subject: 	[HCDX]: Countries list
Date sent: 	Sat, 20 Nov 1999 14:23:37 +0100

Hi,
I will to thank: Ralph Brandi, Willi Passmann, Salvo Micciché, Pentti
Lintujarvi, Klaus-Dieter Scholz, Guido Schottmans for the reply about
the "countries list", now I have this situation:

NASWA list
EDXC list
DXCC list
DXA list
Dieter Scholz list
MondoRadio list

!! it is difficult to know which it is the better list !! what's you
thought ?

Best regards from:
Daniele Canonica
Switzerland

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:56:34 +0200 (EET)
From: 	Risto Vahakainu
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Countries list

On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Swiss.DX wrote:

= Hi,
= I will to thank: Ralph Brandi, Willi Passmann, Salvo Micciché, Pentti
= Lintujarvi, Klaus-Dieter Scholz, Guido Schottmans for the reply about
= the "countries list", now I have this situation:
=
= NASWA list
= EDXC list
= DXCC list
= DXA list
= Dieter Scholz list
= MondoRadio list
=
= !! is difficult to know which it is the better list !! what's you
= thought ?
=
I recall that the NASWA list lists only those countries that have
shortwave activity. Example: Puerto Rico was added to the list last year
 (or 1997?) when the AFRTS SW relay in Puerto Rico started.

The EDXC list is maintained by experienced Swedish DXer Olle Alm. The list
is (at least 99%) unique to the Finnish DX Association's country list. The
EDXC List (and the FDXA list which is in Finnish) are only available in
printed format so far. The latest EDXC List was printed in August 1998 and
it is available for 4 USD or 5 IRC's or equivalent (includes postage) from
EDXC, P.O.Box 214, 00101 Helsinki, Finland.

The EDXC list will most probably come to net in the coming years, but
looks like it is not going to happen during my period as secretary general
 (which is to end at 31 Dec 2000).

best 73's

Risto Vahakainu
secretary general
European DX Council

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Pentti Lintujarvi"
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Countries list
Date sent: 	Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:37:19 +0200

How does it take years to put a simple list into net? It's the money, isn't
it? Are these lists copyrighted? Can I publish my own DX-Country List,
created and updated by me (and is 100 % equivalent of Finnish DX
Association's country list) in the net?

73 de PUL,
Pentti Lintujärvi, Helsinki, Finland
Webmaster of 1000 Lakes DX Page at
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Park/3232/dx.htm
----- Original Message -----

Date sent: 	Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:42:36 +0200 (EET)
From: 	Risto Vahakainu
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Countries list

On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Pentti Lintujarvi wrote:

= How does it take years to put a simple list into net? It's the money, isn't
= it? Are these lists copyrighted? Can I publish my own DX-Country List,
= created and updated by me (and is 100 % equivalent of Finnish DX
= Association's country list) in the net?
=
= 73 de PUL,
= Pentti Lintujärvi, Helsinki, Finland

That is the first reason. The EDXC list is copyrighted and we do have
quite a pile of the 1998 edition left. But this is not really a very big
thing to the EDXC.

I don't know if anyone is going to blame you, if you scan the list to your
pages, but then again the updatings might very soon lead to a situation
that your list differs from the EDXC list. And that's because listing and
maintaining what is a DX country and what is not, is not at all so easy as
you would probably think.

This leads to the other reason which is that we should negociate with Olle
on this matter. As he is the one who actively follows the world in this
respect and he has the originals in his PC (the FDXA Landlist committee
has been quite inactive lately). But I suppose Olle hasn't got web
pages nor tools to work on this. So if you want, you might negociate
this with him, and if you find a suitable procedure to run this matter, go
ahead.

Just to mention that the EDXC list has 20 A4-size pages, and if it is put
into the web it needs a good layout so that you can print the pages well,
because reading such long lists on the screen is often clumsy

73's

Risto Vahakainu
EDXC
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:53:23 +0200 (EET)
From: 	Risto Vahakainu
Subject: 	[HCDX]: Country List Debate

Thanks for both public and private messages concerning the EDXC Country
List and the lists in general. For those who are with in the edxc list but
not in the hard-core-dx -list I'll just briefly say that a discussion on
country lists and their availability has popped up, and quite a few people
have requested to have the lists publicly available in the net.

Concerning the EDXC List I'll try to check a few details, and I hope to be
back with this later this week.

Referring to what Ralph Brandi wrote about the NASWA list, I'll just like
to comment that the EDXC List (and I guess most or maybe all European
lists) uses the principle of dividing to old and new countries. This does
give benefit to older collectors, but also keeps on real life. While
Ralph is proud of the NASWA way of doing this, I would myself find it very
strange to start the hobby now and to be able to pick up
not-anymore-existing countries like East Germany.

Another problem I find with the NASWA list is that it is only for
shortwave. The EDXC List lists all countries and DX-countries in the world
not depending on their current or earlier activity, and it is thus useful
also for medium wave or FM Dxers etc. And it is not necessary to update
the list when new "radio activity" is noted in some country. We just have
to follow with the political changes (which of course are very problematic
in some cases).

The EDXC List bases on the work done by the landlist committee of the
Finnish DX Association (founded in 1964) and the current EDXC Landlist
Comittee chairman Olle Alm.

best 73's

Risto Vahakainu
EDXC
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Jeff Kadet"
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Country List Debate
Date sent: 	Wed, 24 Nov 1999 02:29:40 -0600

Is this the rarest QSL card from the rarest "Country"?

http://members.xoom.com/tvdxer/diu.htm

= And the reason for the confusion is probably the use of the word "countries". In
normal English, it has one meaning; in the context of a list, it can have a
related, but slightly different meaning. The NASWA list isn't the only one that
suffers from this semantic confusion; the DXCC list also comes to mind, and suffers
from this problem to a much greater extent. Personally, I prefer the phrase "radio
countries" to describe what the NASWA list does.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Thu, 25 Nov 1999 14:04:07
From: 	Mauno Ritola
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Country List Debate

At 13.27 24.11.1999 +0200, you wrote:
== =Referring to what Ralph Brandi wrote about the NASWA list, I'll just like
== =to comment that the EDXC List (and I guess most or maybe all European
== =lists) uses the principle of dividing to old and new countries. This does
== =give benefit to older collectors, but also keeps on real life. While
== =Ralph is proud of the NASWA way of doing this, I would myself find it very
== =strange to start the hobby now and to be able to pick up
== =not-anymore-existing countries like East Germany.
==
== And the reason for the confusion is probably the use of the word
"countries". In normal English, it has one meaning; in the context of a
list, it can have a related, but slightly different meaning. The NASWA
list isn't the only one that suffers from this semantic confusion; the DXCC
list also comes to mind, and suffers from this problem to a much greater
extent. Personally, I prefer the phrase "radio countries" to describe what
the NASWA list does.
==
== This may also be a result of cultural differences between America and
Europe, egalitarianism and the relative importance given to status, age,
etc., in the various cultures. That's a potentially wide-ranging topic for
discussion, and one I don't really want to go into in detail aside from
mentioning it as a possible way of understanding the two different approaches.
==
== =Another problem I find with the NASWA list is that it is only for
== =shortwave. The EDXC List lists all countries and DX-countries in the world
== =not depending on their current or earlier activity, and it is thus useful
== =also for medium wave or FM Dxers etc. And it is not necessary to update
== =the list when new "radio activity" is noted in some country. We just have
== =to follow with the political changes (which of course are very problematic
== =in some cases).
==
== NASWA is a SWBC-only club, hence the focus on shortwave only.
==
== Both of Risto's points are valid criticisms of the NASWA list. And I
feel that the implied criticism of the EDXC list that you may read into my
original comments is also valid (I wasn't specifically directing them that
way, but you can read them as a critique if you want). I think there's
merit in both approaches. That's probably a good reason for the existence
of more than one list. NASWA's is purpose-built to fill the needs of our
club's membership. If others wish to use it, that's great. If you feel
one of the other lists suits your purposes better, that's great too. Here
in North America, the NASWA list appears to be widely accepted as a useful
standard. I get the impression that it has little impact in Europe, and
that's okay with me. I don't want anyone to get the impression that I was
putting down the EDXC list or any other list, just explaining the
philosophy behind the NASWA list.
==
== In short, different strokes for different folks. Feel free to choose
whichever list most closely approximates your own philosophy, or make up
one of your own. It's only a hobby, after all.
==
== Incidentally, I want to make clear that my comments here shouldn't be
construed as an official NASWA position or anything, particularly since I
don't sit on the committee in question. I just happen to know a little
something about the topic given my involvement with the club, but I'm
posting as an individual.
== --
== Ralph Brandi ralph@brandi.org webmaster@anarc.org http://www.anarc.org/
==
== Webmaster, Association of North American Radio Clubs
==
=Well spoken, Ralph!
=Just briefly to comment what Klaus Elsebusch wrote that here we have a
=list for Europeans (EDXC) and a list for Americans (NASWA). Everybody and
=every club is of course to pick up what they like more. I know that the
=EDXC list is a result of careful and long-time work, so I see no need to
=change its main principles. Details can be discussed, of course.

	Yes, every club or individual can of course count the whole world as one
DX country or every single tx location as one DX country. And this is a
hobby, but people seem to compete in this or at least compare the results.
For easier comparison it would be good if every club used the same list
throughout the world. After all we are more and more international
community nowadays.
	I personally would prefer the NASWA principle of old radio countries to be
used, but it seems that the main principles of EDXC list can't even be
discussed about. Anyway, I'd like to know if I am the only one in Europe
with this opinion. In my mind any small detail that would keep a newcomer
in the hobby would be good. There are already enough things which
discourage newcomes to continue in the hobby (diminishing number of
stations on SW, MW etc.). Old-timers have enough QSLs from stations not
existing any more, and that's something that can't be changed. But counting
DX countries is a different matter.
	And anyway at least in Finland one can count two radio countries for
Vietnam, if one has heard a station from North Vietnam before unification
and now hears a station from ex-South Vietnam area. That's because they
were independent states. How is that elsewhere and acc. to EDXC list?
Couldn't that detail be widened to DX "countries", too?

73, Mauno

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:27:23 +0200 (EET)
From: 	Risto Vahakainu
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Country List Debate

On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Mauno Ritola wrote:

= For easier comparison it would be good if every club used the same list
= throughout the world. After all we are more and more international
= community nowadays.

The other problem in these comparisons is the QTH problem. Different
parts of the world are different QTHs and of course it is not sensible to
compare with someone who travels everywhere and reports locally or nearly
locally. But some DXers also live during their hobby life in different
countries etc. In Finland this is pretty easy. We count the stations that
have been received in Finland, and many DXers travel to DXpeditions to
west Finland for Brits, North Finland from North Americans and East
Finland for Asian stations. But this rule doesn't work in all
countries. How would you define this?

= 	I personally would prefer the NASWA principle of old radio countries to be
= used, but it seems that the main principles of EDXC list can't even be
= discussed about. Anyway, I'd like to know if I am the only one in Europe
= with this opinion. In my mind any small detail that would keep a newcomer
= in the hobby would be good. There are already enough things which
= discourage newcomes to continue in the hobby (diminishing number of
= stations on SW, MW etc.). Old-timers have enough QSLs from stations not
= existing any more, and that's something that can't be changed. But counting
= DX countries is a different matter.

In general it is a worldwide problem to get youngsters to this hobby. I
don't think this making it a bit easier to hunt countries would really
mean much. Many countries have in practice disappeared, because they have
left shortwave and/or medium wave. And like I said I would feel strange to
be able to QSL old countries and "countries". If we would pick up the
NASWA system, we would then also need to modify the system to work on
medium waves and maybe FM, too, which would need a lot of history
work. This is the reason why I think a complete country list basing on
world politics and geography is better than a list where only radioactive
countries are listed.

=And anyway at least in Finland one can count two radio countries for
= Vietnam, if one has heard a station from North Vietnam before unification
= and now hears a station from ex-South Vietnam area. That's because they
= were independent states. How is that elsewhere and acc. to EDXC list?
= Couldn't that detail be widened to DX "countries", too?
=
= 73, Mauno
=
This problem bases on the idea of whether countries have united or one
country has merged another to it. I discussed this Vietnam case about 10
years ago with the FDXA landlist committee, and those wise men told me
that one criteria of united countries is that the new country has a new
name. The basic example of this case is the unification of Tanganika and
Zanzibar (in the 60's) to a country called Tanzania. And according to the
committee North Vietnam, South Vietnam and Vietnam are different
names. But when east Timor was merged to Indonesia, it just meant that the
country Indonesia grew a bit bigger. Working in a landlist committee is
interesting; you sometimes have to decide on world politics! (I have never
been a member).

Anyway, counting radio countries can still be ruled, but counting radio
stations using clear principles is in practice impossible.

73's

Risto Vahakainu
EDXC
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	Esko Ahlroth
Date sent: 	Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:51:42 +0100
Subject: 	Re[2]: [HCDX]: Country List Debate

Risto,

You brought up a very important point of DX-ing in Finland. You said that it is
not sensible to compare with someone who travels everywhere and reports locally
or nearly locally. That is exactly what you are doing over there. The distance
between Hanko and Utsjoki is about 1100 kilometers. About the same distance
than from my location 3 kilometers west of Geneva (Switzerland) airport in
France to Manchester, England or Budapest, Hungary or Hamburg, Germany or
Madrid, Spain or Palermo, Italy. You really cannot compare your achievements
with DX-ers from other countries, when you do not do your DX-ing from a single
location as most of us in Central Europe do (Fellow DX-ers please correct me if
I am wrong). If we travel the distances you do in Finland, we are very soon
outside the borders of the country where we live.

What about people living in USA? They can travel quite a bit further than you
can travel within Finnish borders, but still their travelling cannot be called
"travelling everywhere", because USA is considered as one country.

It is not only the newcomers which should continue in the hobby. It is also
with us "old-timers" for whom it is not always so evident, why we should stay
with the hobby.

I think, I am a "special case". I started DX-ing back in 1959 in Finland. I
went through the "Finnish Competition" at the time. My best rankings among
Finnish speaking DX-ers were at one time 10th on short waves, 2nd on medium
waves, 2nd on utilities and 1st on TV. However I did not stay long on that
level for several reasons (DX-ing from a single location, using my iron bed as
my best antenna, my studies, my work, etc.).

I left Finland in 1969 to work first in USA for a year and half. After that I
moved to Switzerland and in 1987 to France. As the "Finnish rules" for counting
stations and countries limits listening only inside Finland's borders, my
achievements could not be listed in the Finnish DX publication to compare the
results with listeners in Finland. Therefore, I have been like an orphan for
the last 30 years.

As stubborn as I am, I am still a member of the same Finnish DX-club I started
with in 1959.

Fortunately there are other DX-clubs where competing with other members is not
the most important part of the hobby and your achievements from different
countries can be published without you feeling guilty on imposing your ideas.

Best regards and good DX to everybody,

Esko Ahlroth

Date sent: 	Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:25:28 +0200 (EET)
From: 	Risto Vahakainu
Subject: 	[HCDX]: EDXC Country List

Hi everyone,

the project of getting the EDXC Country List to the net is going
forward. A positive decision has already been made, and I hope I can
submit detailed news about this in early January.

Wishing you all A Merry Xmas and a Happy New Millennium!

Risto Vahakainu
secretary general
European DX Council

HC-DX 03 Index

[HCDX]: addresses + [HCDX]: Why QSL? + [HCDX]: How QSL?

From: 	"Henrik Klemetz"
Subject: 	SV: [HCDX]: Re: addresses
Date sent: 	Sat, 22 Apr 2000 07:06:56 +0200

Dear Ruud,
Well, well, R Bucaramanga no longer exists. The station was purchased years ago by
Caracol, so I wonder who would now be able to verify such an old report.

As for La V del Cinaruco, the OM that used to verify, Mario Frick, passed away
several years ago.

Señorita Blanca, at the Caracol hq, might give out some memorabilia, but from
latest reports the postal service has gone to the dogs now after Adpostal took
over on April 1, 1999. Caracol is part of the Bavaria financial group, just as
Avianca airlines which used to run the (historically rather efficient) air mail
postal service.

So QSLing Colombians is now turning into a real challenge unless you decide to
phone them or e-mail them or send in your reports via DHL (or similar), or, of
course, unless you pay them a visit...

Many stations have nice things in store for visitors, things that they would not
send out in the mail.

This brings to mind that things are now back where they once started when radio was
young.

In addition to a standard reception report, one US DXer now sends out a big diploma
and a paper pennant (printed as a business card) to new stations in recognition of
their signal reaching his QTH.

So, instead of asking them to QSL, he does part of the job himself... And this was
how all started, wasn´t it? One ham (or an SWL) swapping QSL cards with other
hams, SWL´s and broadcasters.

The idea was of course to have a printed record of a contact which, in some cases,
could have been faked. Just think of a CW contact, for example.

Nowadays we may keep sound clips as tokens of our catches. Unfortunately, much of
the printed memorabilia stuff will not reach us. But let´s instead enjoy the
streaming RealAudio of those stations. And why not print out some colourful logos
from the web?

Both Caracol (and competitor network RCN) have really worthwhile sites (including
translation facilities) at http://www.caracol.com.co and http://www.rcn.com.co

73,
Henrik

PS. I recently received a sticker from KDVS, in Davis, CA, for an e-mail report
related to their streaming audio. I am now hoping to be one of the lucky winners
of a Kerbango "Internet receiver" to be awarded among those who signed up with
their online service...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Bjarne Mjelde"
Subject: 	[HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:47:38 +0200

I would like to further on Henrik Klemetz' general comments on QSL'ing.

Why do we QSL a station? Because we "need" written proof that the station was
heard. And of course because it's nice to have an original letter from the station,
in addition to pennants, stickers and other memorabilia submitted. If the
station replies at all.

And that seems to be the problem. Reply rates have declined over the years; as a
result of this we DX-ers have responded to that challenge by sending more reports,
more follow-ups, sweetening the pill by enclosing more return postage, brochures,
pictures, you name it. The most persistent ones "win". Does this affect the reply
rate in a positive way? I don't think so.

I think the main problem why a station refuses to reply is less personell, less
time - and not least; they do no longer identify themselves with us. Gone are the
days when a station's CE was most certainly a HAM, and knew what we wanted. I
think station personell of today tend to ask themselves "ok so he heard us, why
does he want us to verify it when he has a recording already?"

I have more or less stopped sending reception reports, since I don't find it very
rewarding anymore. Instead I keep audio files of the stations I hear and - if the
station is a really rare one - I might send a report. After all, we're in this
"game" to hear the stations, not to receive letters from them. So why don't we
count loggings instead of QSL's?

Or why not turn things around, as the US DX-er Henrik referred to; make a colourful
diploma and send to the station confirming that they were heard at your location?
Perhaps that could have some meaning for the station instead of the endless stream
of (semi) form letters requesting a reply from them.

I have a feeling that if we stopped - or at least drastically reduced - sending
reception reports to these stations (I'm talking about local stations, not
international broadcasters), they might in fact be more motivated to reply to the
few reports that actually came. I have a nasty feeling that they think we're
wasting their time. Should we?

Regards,
Bjarne Mjelde

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Patrick Martin)
Date sent: 	Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:25:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)

What a very interesting report on QSLing!!

 I have been an avid QSLer for many years and I still am just as active with over
3000 MW, SW, etc QSLs. Over 2650 of them are MW.

 I still get the CE answering the report, but more than ever it is the news
director, promotions director, etc that I get the reply from. I still get the
"Yes, you heard our station". but gone are the days of the complete QSL in many
cases. The DXer gets to the point where he/she will accept less of a QSL, as at
least the reply came in. I have gotten that way. The prepared QSL card is something
I would have never used years ago, now I use them once in a while. I guess you
have to change with the times too.

 CEs now has to engineer several stations. Where as in the old days (50s, 60s),
they had one station or an AM&FM combo. Who listened to FM in those days? AM was
everything. CEs were Hams or at least from the "old school" knowing about QSLing.
Many were DXers themselves and QSL'd. I have more than one QSL letter where the CE
mentioned he QSL'd as a child.

 E Mail QSLs are another change in recent times. I don't care for them much
either, but if that is the only way to get a QSL, then I will take it. I have
gotten a few like that. The stations will not QSL any other way, including ppc.

 I have been an avid QSL and I will continue to be. You see QSLing to me is at
least 70% of the hobby. Without QSLing I probably would not continue to DX much.
Through out the years, the reason for QSLing has changed too. Yes, the old reason
to prove you heard the station still stands. But more than that, the history behind
the collection. I QSL call changes. It many cases I have all the call changes a
station has gone through. The different locations on the dial. In so many cases
talking to the station personnel they don't even know where they came from. Many
don't know including the GM or CE that their station was the first in town, had
three call letters, etc. Yes, the old QSL collection is really a piece of history.

 I also tape about everything I hear. It is good for follow ups as I send taped
reports out often. I have tapes back to the 60s & 70s. However, the only time I
check any out is for a follow up. I would rather have the letter or card from the
station.

 No, QSLing will always be there for me. Always! Without it, DXing would be a
very uninteresting hobby.

73s, Patrick Martin
P.S. By the way, I started QSLing in 1965.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Don Lodge"
Subject: 	RE: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:59:07 +0100

Dear friends
May I add my two cents worth to the QSL debate that is going on. I was at the
point of writing when I read Bjarne Mjelde's interesting comments which are similar
to my own.

As a keen DXer who no longer writes for QSLs I am interested in what seems to be an
increase in traffic on the subject on HCDX. A bit like the frustrated hunters
busily stalking the few remaining lions!

No, I stopped sending for QSL cards because I was tired of effectively making
donations to the Post Office - the return rate was very poor. The QSLs I have in my
collection remind me of pleasant evenings - maybe sitting up at night in a dressing
gown listening through the crackle. The excitement of DXing. But, I am under no
illusion. They are of no value except to me, and they prove nothing.

It is easy to get enough information from DX tips columns or from live feeds on the
internet to fraudulently get QSL cards. And let's be honest, those of us who follow
up requests to small stations that we heard many months ago, do not really expect
them to have a station log, to check. We get our replies either as publicity or to
keep us quiet.

So at best a QSL is a nice reminder of a pleasant moment. A bit like buying a
postcard on visiting the Grand Canyon.

And there are other ways of nowadays getting pleasant momentos of DX high-lights.
My Sony minidisk recorder is a great way to record and catalogue live recordings of
ID's. They are still not proof that I heard the stations - I could easily get ID's
from you guys' web sites. But I only DX to satisfy myself, so I need no proof that
I do it.

Best Wishes
Don Phillips

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Sat, 22 Apr 2000 21:52:40
From: 	Mauno Ritola
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: How QSL? (was: Why QSL?)

Further comments on Bjarne's and Henrik's views about QSLing:

One solution could be an "authorized verifier". He (or she) would be a person for a
country or area to collect a certain amount of reports (for one year or 10-100
reports) and contact/send them to the station together with a good explanation what
the reports are for. In a way it would be a kind of QSL office that the hams have.

If the station still doesn't react, the verifier checks the written report or
listens to the tape and verifies the report himself (being preferably a DXer, too),
if he is certain that the station in question was heard. Needless to say, he would
refuse all too unclear recordings and written reports with inadequate programme
details.

I think stations would accept this better than single reports, follow-ups and
follow-follow-ups. This would save their time and effort and they could use one
single form letter, which would satisfy at least me.

But there is one "small" problem: how to organize this? What should the return
postage be ($1-5) etc? Any suggestions?

73, Mauno

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Karel Honzik"
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Re: addresses
Date sent: 	Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:51:44 +0200

= As for La V del Cinaruco, the OM that used to
= verify, Mario Frick, passed away several years ago.

Hi, it is sad to hear that Mario Fric (pron. Fritch) lives no longer. He was a
Czechoslovak native (or a son of a legendary Czechoslovak traveller Fritch?). He
verified my report for La Voz del Cinaruco some 15 years ago and added a short
letter in Czech language. Thanks for this message anyway, Henrik.

GOOD DX,
Karel Honzik

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Enzio Gehrig"
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:49:53 +0200

Hi, totally agree with Don and Bjarne. I have never been a QSL hunter myself and I
don't understand why some DXers "extort" replies from radio stations by going
through embassies and consulates. This behavior will only further reduce the amount
of QSL cards being issued. Some years ago I suggested a moratorium on reception
reports among the DXers I knew. I still think this is a good idea. When I visited
Radio Tanzania Zanzibar last year I found out that the poor guy who handles
listeners correspondence there does not even read or speak English. How the hell is
the supposed to answer QSL requests? Come on friends, let's give these poor fellows
a break!

73, Enzio

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Patrick Martin)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 03:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)

Great comments from Paul there. I totally agree too. A large QSL collection is
something to really be proud of too.

73s,
Patrick

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Ormandy"
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 05:41
Subject: Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)

Hi all,

I've been reading the QSLing trends thread with interest and would like to add my
impressions...

Over the past 26 years, I have been a fervent hunter of QSLs, I've had a persistent
attitude and I've used consulates, visits, e-mail, Prime Ministers (for Radio
Bahamas) etc... I would attempt to QSL every station I heard... hold on to copies,
send follow-ups, include US dollars, tapes, IRCs, souvenirs etc etc... I would
continue to pursue stations, even if they were regularly heard, for 10 years or
more... it's cost me an arm and a Watkins Johnson probably! However, I've been
reappraising my attitude to QSLing over the past 12 months or so. I used to hunt
QSLs for several reasons...

1. Proof I had heard a station - in all my years of DXing, only once has someone
said "show me your QSL to prove you heard such-and-such" so I did and they still
didn't believe me!

2. Competitions - the New Zealand Radio DX League used to have a very strong
competitive element. Best of the Month awards, QSL totals (Ladders), Best of the
Years and various other sundry enticements were highly sought after and encouraged
people to QSL... now the number of DXers chasing QSLs has dwindled to where these
historical contests are won almost by default... so it's no longer an incentive to
QSL

3. Collection - like a stamp or coin collector, I've accumulated QSLs over the
years. The majority are filed in albums but no-one ever asks to see them, and I'd
bore any visitors silly if I dragged them out to brag about. Now with almost 3000
QSLs in my "collection" even this aspect is losing it's novelty value.

4. Achievement - setting myself targets, e.g. 250 Latin QSLs on MW, QSLing a new
country or a hard-to-hear station. This is one area that I will focus on in the
future.

5. Two-way street - when a station solicits reports and offers QSLs, something I'll
continue to do.

So I guess I'm probably heading towards maintaining a audio ID data-base on the PC
or cassette... and chasing the odd QSL I'll treasure, it'll save a considerable
amount of money too... I'd hate to have to tell my wife how much I've spent on
postage over the years... probably have that 4 x 4 in the driveway..

I still get a real kick out of hearing rare stations and love DXpeditions where a
technical approach to new aerials devices etc can yield positive results and I
really enjoy sharing my Beverage site with other DXers so they can reap the rewards
of long aerials in a quiet environment.And if any of you are traveling in this
direction and would like to try DX Waianakarua-style, I'd be happy to host you.

Cheers all,
Paul

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Terry Palmersheim, KC7LDP"
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:19:45 +0100

OK, all. I'll bite on this one. Of those that have replied/ responded to 'Why QSL';
I have sincerely enjoyed reading the pro's and con's of QSLing. My views are as
follows:

I have to go with Paul Ormandy almost line-for-line. Although I have slight
variations to his theme. As far as 'proof' goes, I have had (again) only one person
ask me for proof of reception. Which I dutifully showed. He then noticed that my
return address was from another state; where upon he promptly stated that reception
of stations should be within 50 miles of your base (home) receiver. This was a
member of the MDXC (Minnesota) when I was living there. I had to point out to him
that the MDXC regularly took to DXpeditions that by far exceeded his '50 mile'
limit; of which he was a willing participant in most cases but did NOT collect
QSL's.

 I now live in Washington state. Now what do I do? Throw all of my Minnesota and
previous return address QSL's away? I have been to all 50 states in this country
and I have loved EVERY minute of it. My father was in the USAF for 25 years; so you
tell me, WHERE is my home base?

 I have competed in various competitions over the years. One of which, if I
recall correctly, was a special broadcast from Gambia in the early 80's for a
certain club in Europe. If I remember right, there were some VERY irritated people
on this side of the pond because they weren't given enough advanced notice, if at
all. I remember thinking at the time while reading excerpts in certain NA
bulletins; "Well, that sucks!".

 I now look back on that and think about R. St. Helena and the internet and how
Ed Kusalik, me and certainly others have tried to convince R. Fiji to return to SW;
and all of the great things that have happened since then.

 My other competition has been with my very close friends in the SW hobby. They
have helped me since 1981. I seem to align myself with QSL collectors. It's a race
that only we know. The great thing about the race is that it never ends because
it's that sense of achievment towards each other, not against. I have 217 countries
verified (per NASWA) and can GUARANTEE you that some of these would not have been
possible without help from them; nor them from me.

 Also, I look back to the early 80's when I operated a couple of pirate
stations. I am (as I write this) looking at reports from George Zeller, Fred
Osterman, Joe Talbot, etc. in their requests for QSL's; which, as they were correct
reports, I hoped they received QSL cards. The point is this: I have EVERY broadcast
log of those transmissions I made back then. I CAN STILL VERIFY CORRECT RECEPTION
REPORTS. Therefore, I do not deem it useless, redundant or otherwise that I write
follow-ups to a station 10 or even 20 years later. Case in point: Received full
data QSL card, prepared QSL, pennant, keychains and stickers from XEW on 730 kHz
from 1981 just last year!

 These QSL's are worth the effort! These are the things that I look foward to in
my mailbox aside from the regular drudgery of bills and other bad news.

 If I remember right, I read somewhere that distant reception reports (ours) to
the station proved that the signal was AT LEAST, reaching its intended local
target, if not further afield; thereby proving to prospective clients that it was
in their best interest to advertise on the station. Whoops! Wouldn't that be that
'two way street', thing?.

 Another thing, I DO have tapes, people. But, let me ask you this for example:

Do YOU have a tape of Radio Berlin International's last broadcast?
I DO!
Do YOU have a pennant from Radio Berlin International?
I DO!
Do YOU have a QSL card from RBI's stamped 'Last Broadcast'

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Patrick Martin)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 03:26:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)

Terry's comments are also excellent. I have DXed from Seward AK, Seaside/Warrenton
OR, Portland OR, Rancho Mirage CA, etc and I have all my QSLs together. If I do
enter a contest, which I rarely do, I separate my QSLs. DXing and QSLing from
several locations is fine. I have no problem with that. Few DXers live in the same
place all of their life. I don't keep track anymore of heard totals. I haven't in
years. I do QSL about everything I hear, so I would guess my heard and QSL totals
wouldn't vary that much.

As far as RBI goes. I don't have any of the last broadcasts QSL'd, but I do have
several SW and one MW QSL from RBI. The MW was from 1044 kHz. I also have a 45 RPM
record I won from a contest from the 60s.

Some of my rare QSLs include:
1386 kHz - AFRTS - Canton Island
1550 kHz - FEN - Tokyo, Japan
1584 kHz - 7SH -St. Helens, Tas. (100w)
522 kHz - spur- ABC Sydney
QSL'd several 50w JJ Lighthouse stations (50w)
1670 kHz -Taiwan Fishery - 3 KW

and the list goes on. QSLing is a lot of fun.

73s,
Patrick

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Pieter Johan Pijpers"
Subject: 	RE: [HCDX]: Re: addresses
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:31:32 +0200

Karel, Was his father the one who collected succulent plants in South America?

Piet

= As for La V del Cinaruco, the OM that used to
= verify, Mario Frick, passed away several years ago.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:25:53 +1000
From: 	Richard Jary
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: How QSL? (was: Why QSL?)

Following the debate on QSLing, I was going to come up with similar suggestions to
Mauno. It doesn't have to be an individual, DX Clubs could also become involved.

Over here the Australian Radio DX Club handles reception reports for Radio
Australia (currently handled by John Wright). John also personally handles reports
for the Radio Italia narrowcast MW stations, and has contacted other Sydney-based
narrowcasters - as a consequence it is now possible to get replies from some of
these. Reports to CFRX Ontario are handles by the Ontario DX Association. So
perhaps Clubs could volunteer to handle reports for stations in their country.

One advantage of this would be a higher standard of reporting - the Clubs could
refuse to issue a QSL unless certain essential details are included. If the report
isn't up to standard, return a form letter advising why the QSL hasn't been
granted. I believe some of the Radio Australia reports from DXers who should know
better are absolute shockers.

Winter Monges in Venezuela has volunteered to collect reports and get them verified
for stations in his country. Post or email your report to him and he offers to
visit the station, explain what it is about and try to get a reply. As I understand
it there is no charge until he gets the QSL, when he will ask for postage costs.
Have a look at http://members.tripod.com/~wintermonges/index.html (Info via
WordWide DX Club). I have emailed him a report recently but I presume he hasn't
visited Radio Tachira yet.

People know which stations are difficult to get replies from, and if there are some
of those in your local area then perhaps a call to the station, asking them if they
know about QSLs and what to do with them - and possibly offering help - may not go
astray. The worst that can happen is a station will say they are not interested in
replying, or having anyone reply for them. At least we then know where we stand and
can save money on trying to report that station.

This counts for MW and SW stations equally, and not only to those people living in
the bush. Perhaps we should check our local MW stations and see what their policy
is - if anyone is having trouble with Sydney or Newcastle MW stations, then send me
an email and I will see what I can do. I might need some help the other way soon,
hopefully I will get some more North Americans in the next few months.

As for postage costs, I wouldn't plan on seeing people making a profit from this.
Postage from Australia worldwide is now A$1.50 max for a standard letter, so US$1
should cover it. We can simply do it as a way to help others in the same hobby, and
hope someone will do the same for us. I prefer sending stamps if possible, that way
there is hopefully less temptation for the person at the other end to simply pocket
the money - but access to stamps from some countries is a problem (if anyone wants
some A$1.50 stamps then let me know, I have already done swaps with North America
and New Zealand - and I am sure something can be worked out either as a stamp swap
or for the equivalent in US$.) Of course that is only worthwhile if you plan on
sending a number of reports to the one country.

That all turned into a bit of a rambling conversation, but has hopefully shed a bit
more light on the subject.

Richard

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Enzio Gehrig"
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 12:43:17 +0200

Hi Terry,

even though I'm not an avid QSL hunter (I wrote my first reception report after 10
years of DXing), I do feel sorry for not obtaining a QSL from RBI' last broadcast
 (my fault for being too lazy). I served in the US Forces for 11 years (as a German
national civilian) and I was stationed in Berlin when the wall came down. It was
definitely one of the most touching experiences of my life. At least I got a
sizeable piece of the wall (with nice graffiti) which now decorates my patio. It
attracts a lot of attention.

73, Enzio

=
= Do YOU have a tape of Radio Berlin International's last broadcast?
= I DO!
= Do YOU have a pennant from Radio Berlin International?
= I DO!
= Do YOU have a QSL card from RBI's stamped 'Last Broadcast'

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Winter Monges"
Subject: 	[HCDX]: How QSL? (was: Why QSL?)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:20:08 -0400

Dear Mr. Richard Jary:

Thanks for your kindness and comments about the Venezuelan QSL Help Service. By the
way, I already have your Radio Tachira QSl-letter but I will send you next Friday
29.

*******************************************************
=Winter Monges in Venezuela has volunteered to collect reports and get them
verified for stations in his country. Post or email your report to him and he
offers to visit the station, explain what it is about and try to get a reply. As I
understand it there is no charge until he gets the QSL, when he will ask for
postage costs. Have a look at http://members.tripod.com/~wintermonges/index.html
 (Info via WordWide DX Club). I have emailed him a report recently but I presume he
hasn't visited Radio Tachira yet.
*******************************************************

I have help Dxers from Finland, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Italy, Ukrania,
Russia, Japan, South Africa, England, U.S.A., Canada, Peru, Australia and
New Zeland.

I obtained QSL from: R. Lara, R.Juventud, R.Barquisimeto, R.Universo, R.Cristal,
Radio Yaracuy, Radio Minuto, R. Tricolor 990, R.Popular, R. Mara, Rdio Rachira,
Ecos del Torbes, Radio Puerto Cabello, R. Alegria 1020, Radio Apolo, Radio Super
Criolla 1390, Ondas Porteñas 640, R. Porlamar 1140 (ex-R.Margariteña 1140),
R.Mundial Margarita, R.Anzoategui, Radio nacional de Venezuela, R. Valera, R.
Amazonas, R, Barinas, R. Fe y Alegria 850, R. Maracaibo and R. Apolo.

I have more than 600 reports specially the more reported Radio 2000, Radio
Vibracion and Radio Carupano (about 45 reports) I hope to visit those cities
this year and obtain the qsl.

I hope dxers that have been beneficiary of this service could send a note to
Hard-Core-DX explaining the veracity and seriousness of Venezuelan QSL Help
service.

By the way, In many case I send the QSL with a note that when receive the QSL send
the postal cost but in some oportunities dxers forget to send the money and I lost
the postal cost. So, I request to some dxers recently that they should send the
postal first but in any case I send them the qsl. So, I will keep the old policy
to send the QSL first and when the dxers get it then will send me the money. At
yours service,

Winter Monges
P.O.Box. 1.116
barquisimeto 3001-A
Lara Venezuela
http://members.tripod.com/~wintermonges/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Ruud Vos)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:15:23 GMT

On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:49:53 +0200, you wrote:

=Hi,
=totally agree with Don and Bjarne. I have never been a QSL hunter myself
=and I don't understand why some DXers "extort" replies from radio stations
=by going through embassies and consulates. This behavior will only further
=reduce the amount of QSL cards being issued. How the hell is the supposed to
=answer QSL requests? Come on friends, let's give these poor fellows a break!
=73, Enzio

Hi Enzio,

I am such a guy wich ask as last attempt a embassy to help me to QSL a station, for
me this is not a diffrence when you visit a station and ask a QSL and the way I do.

When I ask a embassy to help:before that I have send many follow up reports without
any QSL result.

And really there are still stations left wich NOT QSL after embassy help, when they
not want to QSL they just don't do It, with or without embassy help! Embassy help
is not a pressure to the station to QSL, in some cases I get the wanted QSL
allright.

I think it is just a attetion to the station, how I would love to have their QSL,
and the trouble I take to contact a embassy to help, nothing more. Bye for now,

Ruud

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	 (Patrick Martin)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 12:22:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)

The only embassy I used was the French, when I need a QSL from Tahiti-738 kHz. I
got a quick reply. I sent my report to the embassy in San Francisco and my report
was hand delivered by someone going to Tahiti.

73s,
Patrick

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Patrick Martin)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 12:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 	RE: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)

Right now there are many stations that are tough QSLers. There always have been.
That isn't anything new. I have done just that. If the station is a tough QSLer, so
just will reply by ppc (which I don't like), I wait a few years and try again. You
know in many cases the wait works.

73s,
Patrick

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 15:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: 	Don Moore
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (Paraguay story)

I've never used an embassy or similar office to help me get a QSL. I did once,
unintentionally, get the help of another station. In 1988 I had a friend who was
going to Paraguay to do some research. He had lived there for several years and
spoke both Spanish and Guarani (Paraguay's second official language) fluently. The
later is very unusual for a foreigner. My friend took reports of mine for Radio
Nacional in Asuncion and for Radio Encarnacion (11940v kHz), although he didn't
expect to get to the city of Encarnacion.

His Guarani wowed the people at Radio Nacional and he got me a nice QSL and several
good pictures for me. At that point in his visit he knew he wouldn't get to
Encarnacion and he mentioned the Radio Encarncion report to the manager at Radio
Nacional. The manager said not to worry, they had a special courier who was going
to Encarnacion the next day. The courier could take the report and deliver it in
person along with a letter from the manager instructing the station to answer my
letter. My friend handed over my report, not exactly expecting any results.

Did it really get sent by special courier? I don't know, but less than two weeks
later - before my friend was back from Paraguay - I had a QSL in the mailbox from
Radio Encarncion, sent via special handling, registered mail.

In this instance, the power of high officials obviously worked in my favor.
Ironically, I did not receive a QSL from Radio Nacional in 1985 for the same reason
- power of officals. I visited the station that year while in Asuncion, but had
waited until my last day in the city to go there. It turned out to be a holiday,
which I hadn't read about, and all the higher officials at the station were gone.
Only a few lowly announcers and technical people were there. Although very polite
 (they gave me a great tour), they all refused to issue me a QSL since that was
clearly an important document that only someone like a manager could sign.

Don Moore
Radio: http://www.swl.net/patepluma

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Henrik Klemetz"
Subject: 	[HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 17:27:42 +0200

In DXing, as in other activities, you will find all sorts of people, from outright
crooks to bona fide hobbyists.

I have met with people who said that they did not mind using the WRH (this was
before the book was renamed WRTH) for "programme details". And I have seen their
veries, which helped them win the QSL ranking competitions of the day.

I have also met with people whose action was fraudulent, and yet unintentional. One
case was a DXer whose hearing was damaged during WW II. Despite his handicap, or
perhaps rather on account of it, he was keenly interested in DXing, eagerly trying
to decipher those tiny and squeaky noises you sometimes encounter when tuning the
bands on a poorly aligned receiver.

At the end of the 50´s this guy had assembled an unprecedented collection of
pennants from Mexican MW stations. At this time, during live and open stage
broadcasts, stations in Latin America and the Philippines (the Roman Catholic
church being the common denominator) used to attach a big pennant onto their
microphones so that all attendants would be aware of which station was transmitting
the event.

Typically, these rectangular-shaped pennants would measure 20 x 50 cm or so,
showing the station call sign in yellow on a background of green. There would be no
other logo on the pennant, only the call letters.

This OM from the town of Avesta, in Sweden, had a large number of these unique
items on the wall at the entrance of his house. Most of them were from Mexicans
that have yet to be logged by Lemmenjoki DXpeditiionaries.

Those who knew this guy said he was was friendly and generous, but to the
"fundamentalist" Swedish DXing community his attitude was inadmissible, and so he
was ousted from submitting logs and QSL´s to the current publications.

From: 	"Martin Elbe"
Subject: 	RE: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 20:26:17 +0200

Hi,

= I am such a guy wich ask as last attempt a embassy to help me to
= QSL a station,
= for me this is not a diffrence when you visit a station and ask a
= QSL and the way I do.

Rubbish. For what do you ask your embassy to help you, if not with the intention to
increase pressure on the station? Sorry to say so, but I think this is an
unacceptable behaviour. I'm a keen QSL-collector too, but I don't think that this
is the way we should try to "extort" QSLs.

There are always stations unwilling to QSL. So what? Perhaps they will do so in 10
years. But after such an experience they won't certainly do it again. It's nothing
but a bloody unfair practice to other DXers.

73
Martin

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Ruud Vos)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Sun, 23 Apr 2000 21:43:12 GMT

On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 20:26:17 +0200, you wrote:
=
=Rubbish. For what do you ask your embassy to help you, if not with the
=intention to increase pressure on the station? Sorry to say so, but I think
=this is an unacceptable behaviour. I'm a keen QSL-collector too, but I don't
=think that this is the way we should try to "extort" QSLs.
=
=There are always stations unwilling to QSL. So what? Perhaps they will do so
=in 10 years. But after such an experience they won't certainly do it again.
=It's nothing but a bloody unfair practice to other DXers.
=
=73
=Martin

Moin moin Martin,

Don't make me laugh Martin, Is embassy help on very hard to QSL stations
unacceptable behaviour!

It can give also further positive results maybe, because stations realise how
important QSL's can be for DX'ers!

People of the embassy don't contact stations with a knife on their throats, this is
going on a very diplomative way Martin!

Once again If they really not want to QSL, they don't QSL is my experience!

73!
Ruud

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	Andy Schmid
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 07:45:35 EDT
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (Paraguay story)

Additionally to Don's story I can advice never to visit a LA station on Saturday,
Sunday, on a holiday or at noon. The director never will be there and even his room
will be locked. But I had completely different experiences regarding QSLs. The
friendly staff always signed the QSLs or PPCs. In two cases friendly directors
visited with me on a Sunday all the other station directors of the area at their
private homes - the best thing that ever happened to me. Needless to say that my
Pennant Museum incredibly profited by that.

73s, Andy
 (Pennant Museum)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Martin Elbe"
Subject: 	RE: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:02:18 +0200

Hi,

= Don't make me laugh Martin, Is embassy help on very hard to QSL stations
= unacceptable behaviour!

Again: I think it is unacceptable to threaten stations with diplomatic
trouble! It is a kind of blackmailing!

= It can give also further positive results maybe, because stations realise
= how important QSL's can be for DX'ers!

Come on! What is so important in a QSL, that you even start these things? I got all
of my QSLs without dirty tricks, and that's from 200 EDXC countries by now. A
collection I'm proud of, but this QSL-hunting does not justify everything. Of
course, there are stations I never got verified. And alas they are becoming more
and more. Yes, I'd like to have R. Corporacion 1380 in my collection too, same as
Bahamas 1540, KQXX 1700 or or or..

= People of the embassy don't contact stations with a knife on
= their throats, this is going on a very diplomative way Martin!

Yes, and exactly that's why I think your behaviour is unfair: Using third parties
to "threaten" people, that their not-answering to your letter could cause
diplomatic problems. Unfair to the stations and unfair to other hobby-colleagues.

For example R. Corporacion in Chile: Maybe you could increase your chances for a
QSL, if you would take the trouble to write their station's name correctly? Ever
thought of such details? Speaking of details:

==Detalles de la programacion: Ustedes anunciaron el nombre de la emisora a
==las 2130 horas con las siguientes palabras "DESDE SANTIAGO CAPITAL DE
==CHILE,TRANSMITE RADIO COPERACION...........

With "details" as you gave them in your report I wouldn't verify your report
either! Not with and not without an embassy.

73
Martin

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Ruud Vos)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:52:53 GMT

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:02:18 +0200, you wrote:

=Again: I think it is unacceptable to threaten stations with diplomatic
=trouble! It is a kind of blackmailing!

This are only a few exceptions!

== It can give also further positive results maybe, because stations realise
== how important QSL's can be for DX'ers!
==Come on! What is so important in a QSL, that you even start these things? I
=got all of my QSLs without dirty tricks, and that's from 200 EDXC countries
=by now. A collection I'm proud of, but this QSL-hunting does not justify
=everything. Of course, there are stations I never got verified. And alas
=they are becoming more and more. Yes, I'd like to have R. Corporacion 1380
=in my collection too, same as Bahamas 1540, KQXX 1700 or or or..

There is for me nothing wrong to ask a embassy in a last attempt (after many
f/ups) to help me to get a QSL, for me discussion closed!

== People of the embassy don't contact stations with a knife on
== their throats, this is going on a very diplomative way Martin!
=Yes, and exactly that's why I think your behaviour is unfair: Using third
=parties to "threaten" people, that their not-answering to your letter could
=cause diplomatic problems. Unfair to the stations and unfair to other
=hobby-colleagues.

There is nothing unfair, every DX'er is free if he want to do it on my way,
on reactions in the list I saw I was not the only one.

=For example R. Corporacion in Chile: Maybe you could increase your chances
=for a QSL, if you would take the trouble to write their station's name
=correctly? Ever thought of such details? Speaking of details:

Everyone can make type faults, including you Martin, this is ridiculous!

===Detalles de la programacion: Ustedes anunciaron el nombre de la emisora a
====las 2130 horas con las siguientes palabras "DESDE SANTIAGO CAPITAL DE
===CHILE,TRANSMITE RADIO COPERACION...........

A tape recording will follow.

=73
=Martin

73!
Ruud
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Wian Stienstra"
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:26:23 +0200
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)

On 23 Apr 00, at 21:43, Ruud Vos wrote:

Hello all,

Martin and Ruud wrote:

= Don't make me laugh Martin, Is embassy help on very hard to QSL stations
= unacceptable behaviour!
= It can give also further positive results maybe, because stations realise
= how important QSL's can be for DX'ers!
= People of the embassy don't contact stations with a knife on their throats,
= this is going on a very diplomative way Martin!

Well, I beg to differ. An embassy is a medium that increases pressure enormously,
because many radiostations are involved in development projects sponsored by a
government, which are audited and monitored primarily by embassies. Illustrative
of this are facilities in Papua New Guinea, sponsored by the Japanese government
and a Surinamese radiostation that had an FM- transmitter donated by the Indian
government. These are big donations, but on a smaller scale assistance is also
given, for example hiring airtime to disseminate the results of a particular
project.

Since nobody wants to bite the hand that feeds them of course these stations will
issue a QSL. Indeed, they are probably used to handing out all kinds of paper with
stamps and signatures to document projects and/or get co-financing for their
activities. To these non-QSLing stations, a verification will probably just be
another piece of paper like that.

Best 73s all
Wian Stienstra

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Ruud Vos)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:52:55 GMT

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:26:23 +0200, you wrote:

=Well, I beg to differ. An embassy is a medium that increases
=pressure enormously, because many radiostations are involved in
=...
=Best 73s all
=Wian Stienstra

Thanks for the interesting contribution in the discussion!

73!
Ruud Vos

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:42:58 +1000
From: 	Richard Jary
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: How QSL? (was: Why QSL?)

Winter Monges wrote:

= Dear Mr. Richard Jary:
=
= Thanks for your kindness and comments about the Venezuelan QSL Help Service.
= By the way, I already have your Radio Tachira QSl-letter but I will send yu
= next Friday 29.

Excellent news, I will look forward to getting it in the mail soon. And I will
happily promote the "QSL route" and your assistance in hard-core-dx, Cumbre and
the Australian Radio DX Club.

= By the way, In many case I send the QSL with a note that when receive the
= QSL send the postal cost but in some oportunities dxers forget to send the
= money and I lost the postal cost. So, I request to some dxers recently that
= they should send the postal first but in any case I send them the qsl. So, I
= will keep the old policy to send the QSL first and when the dxers get it
= then will send me the money.

I guess you quickly learn which people to get the money from first :-)

Thanks
Richard

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Ruud Vos)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:24:37 GMT

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 08:34:59 EDT, you wrote:

=As I do remember right....
=this nasty theme we had some times ago on the list. Does it start again?
=If so... why? It is boaring.
=Ruud and Martin, if you want to argue this theme again and again...
=please do it privately, but not on the list.
=Thank you. Dank je wel. Vielen Dank.
=
=Klaus/DL 3 EAY and DE 2 JLS

Hi Klaus,

This was more then enough! You are right Klaus!
I am not started with this discussion, the only thing I did was left a message in
the list that I asked the dutch embassy to help me to QSL Radio Corporacion, after
that there was a negative reaction from Martin, and that was the start of the
ridiculous discussion. No more discussion, this are my last words! Goeie DX verder!

Groetjes
Ruud

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Ruud Vos)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:50:16 GMT

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:20:22 +0200, you wrote:

=Moin Klaus,
=
=Wurdest Du es bitte mir uberlassen, was ich wann und wo und mit wem
=diskutiere? Danke!
=
=Das Thema QSLs ist auf einer DX-Liste jedenfalls nicht "Off-Topic", wo also
=ist Dein Problem? Wenn Dich das Thema nicht interessiert kannst Du den
=Thread ja gern loschen. Und wenn Dir HCDX nicht mehr gefallt, dann la?t sich
=das mit dem Befehl "unsubscribe" abbestellen.
=
=Im ubrigen la?t Dich Dein Gedachtnis im Stich: das Thema hatten wir bereits
=auf A-DX, nicht auf HCDX. Hat also durchaus Sinn. Aber um Dich zu beruhigen:
=Da ja jetzt alle Argumente ausgetauscht sind, wird die Diskussion vermutlich
=binnen der nachsten 24 Stunden endgultig zum Erliegen kommen. Brauchst also
=nicht langer zu Barmen.
=
=Tschu?,
=Martin
=

Moin Martin,

I think also Risto will find this enough Martin, so let us be friends again and
close the discussion.
You are for me still a fine DX'er with lotts of interesting loggings and more, I
hope to mail again with you when I have questions, allright? All the best Martin!

73!
Ruud

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Jeff Kadet"
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: How QSL? (was: Why QSL?)
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:08:51 -0500

More advice to get a QSL by mail from a DXer of 45 years:

1. Enclose a little "Baksheesh". Attach a U.S. $1.00 bill to your request.

2. Include return postage in the native country's stamps.

3. always include an audio cassette of the reception.

I collect old veries and have a few hundred BCB QSLs/EKKO stamps from the late
1920's. The letterheads are beautiful and many list the frequency in wavelength and
kilocycles.

73, Jeff
Macomb, IL

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Julius Hermans"
Subject: 	[HCDX]: How to QSL?
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:09:25 +0200

This morning I read through an enormous backlog of mails: technical difficulties
and lack of time prevented me from emptying my mailbox before. I read all the
opinions on how and why to QSL and since I have often thought about the subject
myself I would like to give some opinions and experiences myself.

I gave up sending reports many years ago. I spent much time trying to send good,
accurate and personal reports, but the return rate was so low I did not find it
worth the time, trouble and money to send out reports. I seldom sent one nowadays,
only for very special stations.

I support the idea from Mauno Ritola and others to use other DX'ers as a help.
There are two methods.

1-Local DX'ers visiting their local stations to get reports verified.

2-appointing DX'ers as QSL-managers.

1-A local DX'er can visit the stations in his neigbourhood and try to persuade them
to verify reports. Nothing wrong about that. It a local guy, speaking the native
tongue, maybe knowing people at the station, knows the structure and organisation
at a local station. For instance I once helped a Finnish DX'er obtaining a QSL from
a Regional FM-broadcaster in the Netherlands. He sent out a good and complete
report but no reply. I knew that all letters to such stations came in at the
PR-department, normally handling request records, stickers etc. One phone-call to
the friendly girl in the department learned she still had the report on her desk,
she hardly spoke english and did not know the report was about. My phone-call
resulted in the report being transferred to the CE and a fine QSL was posted to
Finland the same day!!

2- QSL-managers is more complex. There should be some sort of official appointment
from the station concerned, I think. Here in Holland Ruud Vos issues QSl's for
1584AM and Koos Wijnants does for Haagstad radio on 1485. They have contacts with
the station and have been officially appointed. I think that really is a condition.
The station must know about their existence and for instance the QSL-manager should
be able to visit the station regularly to collect reports there and check their
files if he doubts about certain programme-details (for instance to check which
records the station played on a given sunday at 0623 UTC).

With these conditions fulfilled a DX'er can easily fill the gap left by station who
do not have time, money, interest, staff etc etc. to handle reports. But, the
QSL-manager should have a sort of offical status. I know an example where a chief
engineer of a radiostation (I will not give out the name) contacted me and asked me
if reception conditions of his station had worsened since the station hardly
received any reception reports. This was quite a few years back. I answered him
that reception of the station was still fine and that I did not know why their new
QSL-manager would receive less reports. In this case a person from that country had
advertised himself widely in the DX-press an QSL-manager for that station. The
chief engineer called me back and it turned out that he -or anybody at the station-
did not knew about his existence!! It was a person who collected U.S. dollars and
knew DX'ers would eagerly send him some in return for a postcard with QSL written
on it!!

I do not think embassies are a good method to obtain QSL's. Collecting QSL's is a
hobby and people work at radiostations for a living. Don't forget that!! If I look
at my own work I would have something to explain if my boss says" well, I received
a phone-call from the British embassy and they complain you did not answer letter X
from a British citizen". Embassies are political institutions and many countries
are no democracies. Any kind of involvement could be dangerous for local people.
This foreign interest could possibly harm people and No QSL is worth this (maybe
slight possibility !) that a local radio-employee has to answer questions from his
local government-officials why the Dutch or Britissh embassy has an interest in him
or his station.

When I did sent out reports I always enclosed one or two dollars. I stopped this
straight away after hearing the following story: I once met a guy who had worked
at a radiostation in one of the former Soviet republics in central Asia. The
stations received an average of 30 reports a month, 20 had dollar-bills enclosed,
10 reports had IRC's or no return postage. The poor guy had an official
investigation on him as his boss suspected him of nicking the dollars out of these
10 IRC-reports!!!

Well, just a few thoughts from my side.
Julius Hermans Netherlands

From: 	"Mike Brooker"
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)
Date sent: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:50:58 -0400

In the 70s and 80s I used to be a gung-ho QSL chaser. Now I will only send for a
QSL if the station is expecting reports (such as a CPC DX test), or if it is a new
DX catch and I hear at least 15 minutes of good, verifiable, original programming
 (i.e. not something coming off a satellite).

=1. Proof I had heard a station - in all my years of DXing, only once has
=someone said "show me your QSL to prove you heard such-and-such" so I did
=and they still didn't believe me!

One more time than me. In my 25 years of DXing, no one has ever questioned any of
my receptions or asked to see my verie as proof that I heard a station.
=
=2. Competitions - the New Zealand Radio DX League used to have a very strong
=competitive element. Best of the Month awards, QSL totals (Ladders), Best of
=the Years and various other sundry enticements were highly sought after and
=encouraged people to QSL... now the number of DXers chasing QSLs has
=dwindled to where these historical contests are won almost by default... so
=it's no longer an incentive to QSL

I never got into those QSL contests, though I received a couple of awards (like Boy
Scout merit badges) when I was in ODXA many years ago.

=3. Collection - like a stamp or coin collector, I've accumulated QSLs over
=the years. The majority are filed in albums but no-one ever asks to see
=them, and I'd bore any visitors silly if I dragged them out to brag about.
=Now with almost 3000 QSLs in my "collection" even this aspect is losing it's
=novelty value.

Yes, QSL collecting is not much different from collecting stamps, coins, or beer
bottles. I have some 600 mediumwave QSLs, and about 85 shortwave countries QSLed.
The cards are all neatly pasted into photo albums, while the veries are filed in
binders. All in order of frequency (MW) or alphabetically by country (SW). But no
one has ever asked to see my QSL collection, and I wouldn't drag them out unless
asked. Putting GIFs of a few QSL cards on my website was my first attempt in years
to share my collection with other DXers.

=4. Achievement - setting myself targets, e.g. 250 Latin QSLs on MW, QSLing a
=new country or a hard-to-hear station. This is one area that I will focus on
=in the future.

Getting those QSLs from rare DX catches did fill me with a sense of achievement.
Particularly for a nerdy, withdrawn teenager who was alienated in high school and
had no girlfriends :) But in the real world, who really cares? More than 20 years
later I can still take pride in my QSL from CKFX-6080 (10 watts) or WFOY-1240 (best
graveyard catch), but what does it mean to non-DXers? Can I put it on my resumé?

I have never used prepared cards, and rarely send follow-ups. The longest I have
ever had to wait for a verie was KRVN-880 Lexington, NE. Took almost 4 years with
no f/up reports.

73 Mike Brooker
Toronto, ON M6G 3X8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:04:00 +0300
From: 	Per-Ole Stenman
Subject: 	[HCDX]: QSLs etc

I think DXing never will disappear. As long as there are stations and people who
want to get in contact with the stations. Maybe by listening to the stations but
also to contact the stations and learn more about the stations, either writing them
or contacting them thru internet. QSLs can be collected in different ways, if you
want to do well in a national competition based on received QSL, then you have to
send a lot of reports.

If you want to collect for the future a valuable DX-collection then it is not
enough to collect points, call changes and you name it.

Some years ago we got a valuable donation to our local DX-club, Jakobstads DX-Club
of Finland from a former DX-er who passed away. There were also many to that date
unknown FFF-stations (first QSLed for Finland) and many QSLs from the beginning of
50's along with log books, some old DX-publications (e.g. Shortwave News Magazine
from Soklot) and correspondence with other DX-ers at that time.Then I realized that
it is not the points that are important. It's rather the whole stuff that's making
the complete collection.

This means;
-year to year contribution to a DX-magazine (at least if you want to save your
official loggings for the future this is still far better than internet.

-collection of DX-litterature from the time span you were active, including
DX-magazines, books like WRTH...

-log books you have made, copies of letters to the stations, correspondence.

-recordings of your stations e.g. on cassettes, minidesks (are they safe to store
for 30+ years like normal recordings?)

-and of course QSLs from the stations not to forget. I appreciate e-mail
verifications as a good and acceptable QSL since they are a picture of the
situation today. In 10-20 years the particular station might have been gone
anyhow and especially the veri signer is not with the station any more. And
e-mails tend to be more familiar and more detailed than normal answers today.

More stations means more memories and is one reason why I am still struggling to
hear a new station. I am now waiting for my 2000th medium wave QSL and over the 32
active years I have succeeded to QSL 170 countries.

73s Per-Ole Stenman,
Jakobstad

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:22:05 +0300
From: 	Per-Ole Stenman
Subject: 	RE: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (was: Re: addresses)

I also know about the opposite. Finnish DX-er Mika Makelainen was visiting
some stations in New York years ago, and as a result of his visits WLIB New
York-1190 started to QSL listerners' reports again. WLIB still seems to
verify the reports quite regularly.
Per-Ole

=Rubbish. For what do you ask your embassy to help you, if not with the
=intention to increase pressure on the station? Sorry to say so, but I think
=this is an unacceptable behaviour. I'm a keen QSL-collector too, but I don't
=think that this is the way we should try to "extort" QSLs.
=
=There are always stations unwilling to QSL. So what? Perhaps they will do so
=in 10 years. But after such an experience they won't certainly do it again.
=It's nothing but a bloody unfair practice to other DXers.
=
=73
=Martin
=
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:49:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: 	Don Moore
Subject: 	RE: [HCDX]: Why QSL? - old reports

One of the many threads of this discussion has been sending follow-ups to very old
reports. I did a lot of this in the late 1980s and early 1990s, QSLing stations
five, ten, and even 20 years after I heard. One two occasions, long inactive
stations reactivated their SW frequencies within a year of receiving (and QSLing)
my ten year old report. One was Ondas Musicales in the Dominican Republic and I
know there was one more, but I'd have to look through the QSLs to remember who. I
certainly don't know that my reports caused these stations to reactivate, but who
knows? Interesting coincidence, at the least. And, we can certainly use anything
that brings back old stations.

Another similar situation happened in 1988. Early in 1988 while looking through my
pennants I noticed my 1978 15th anniversary pennant from Radio Guatapuri, Colombia
4815 kHz. They had celebrated 15 years in August 1978 (I'm not going to look up the
exact date), so obviously would have 25 years on that same date later in 1988. I
wrote them a nice letter suggesting they reactivate their SW frequency for their
25th anniversary and suggested that they write me before hand of their plans so I
could publicize it. I never heard anything from them and forgot about it. However,
that August evening I received a phone call from Dave Valko telling me that Radio
Guatapuri had reactivated with some sort of live celebration going on. I tuned in
and there they were - celebrating 25 years on the air. They hadn't been on SW for
around 5 or 6 years at that time and haven't, to my knowledge, been back since.

Anyway, whether you're asking for an overdue QSL or just reminding a a long
inactive station that they used to have an international audience, you never know -
you might just cause a station to reactivate.

Don Moore mooredxer@yahoo.com
Radio: http://www.swl.net/patepluma

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:03:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: 	Don Moore
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL? (Paraguay story)

= and even his room will be locked. But I had completely
= different experiences
= regarding QSLs. The friendly staff always signed the QSLs
= or PPCs.

My experience at Radio Nacional de Paraguay was unusual. Most of the time I have
had no trouble getting someone to sign the QSL - secretary, program director,
announcer, technician - but never the station janitor - I have some standards,;-)
. The most disheartening non-QSL was at Radio Nacional de Mendoza in Argentina. In
two days I went there three times and waited at least an hour for the manager, but
he never came and no one else would QSL my report. At least Mendoza was a beautiful
city to visit, but I still don't have a QSL from there.

Don Moore mooredxer@yahoo.com
Radio: http://www.swl.net/patepluma

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Henrik Klemetz"
Subject: 	SV: [HCDX]: Why QSL? - old reports
Date sent: 	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:54:23 +0200

Many stations switched off SW when the founders and/or owners passed away. R
Guatapurí (Manuel Pineda Bastidas) is one case in point, R Santa Fé (Hernando
Bernal) another. Bernal´s wife (and daughters) did of course try to keep the old
paraphernalia going, unfortunately without much success.

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Moore
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 3:49 AM
Subject: RE: [HCDX]: Why QSL? - old reports

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date sent: 	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:26:08 -0600
From: 	"Elmer D. Escoto R."
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: How QSL? (was: Why QSL?)

Hello everyone.

Mauno Ritola wrote:

= One solution could be an "authorized verifier". He (or she) would be a
= person for a country or area to collect a certain amount of reports (for
= one year or 10-100 reports) and contact/send them to the station together
= with a good explanation what the reports are for. In a way it would be a
= kind of QSL office that the hams have.

I have received reports from several DXers around the world for Radio Costeña,
which is 10 minutes drive from where I live.

I have to say the results have been dissapointing. We (DXers) had better luck when
it was Radio Internacional. At least they replied sometimes, and if I would go to
the station with a friend's report and wait there, they would usually verify by
letter, hand it to me and I would then mail it.

After it was renamed to Radio Costeña, the whole administration staff was changed,
because the station is now owned by an evangelic church. I happened to meet the
director once (I had to go to church in order to do so :-) ), and we had a nice chat
about the DXing hobby, QSLing and the like. He actually thought that the US$1 he
was getting in the mail with reception reports was God's answer to his prayers for
financing..... So we talked, and I told him I would visit him some day with a
bunch of reports, to which he agreed.

The bad part happened when I came to visit. He told me to call him before I went
there, so he would be ready with a secretary. I called, they asked "who is it?" I
said "It's Elmer, he knows me, he told me to call." I was then asked to wait on
hold, and after 10 minutes on hold the girl said: "He can't recall meeting you.
Please call later, he is in a meeting". The same story went on the next time I
called, so I decided to go there without calling before. i got to the station, I
explained to the front desk girl what I was there for, and she told me to wait.
She went inside and when she came back she told me it was the man's "prayer hour"
and noone was to disturb him. When I asked her how long was his "prayer hour", she
said she didn't know, it is better to come some other day. So then I came back
three days in a row, I was given all kinds of "bull" stories until I just gave it
up. I figure the guy wanted the US$ for himself, and didn't want to have someone
to accuse him of that, so he kept hiding.

It's sad, but true.

= If the station still doesn't react, the verifier checks the written report
= or listens to the tape and verifies the report himself (being preferably a
= DXer, too), if he is certain that the station in question was heard.
= Needless to say, he would refuse all too unclear recordings and written
= reports with inadequate programme details.
= I think stations would accept this better than single reports, follow-ups
= and follow-follow-ups. This would save their time and effort and they could
= use one single form letter, which would satisfy at least me.

That I could do. However, I'm not sure, in this particular case, that they would
want to stamp their seal. I say this because then the station director would know
that he will not get any more envelopes with 1 US$ inside :-) and then, what's in
it for him?

= But there is one "small" problem: how to organize this? What should the
= return postage be ($1-5) etc? Any suggestions?

Well, this field will be open for discussion :-) In the meantime, keep those dials
turning.

73s to everyone from a very hot (37° C) Honduras.
Elmer David Escoto Romero

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	(Ruud Vos)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: How QSL? (was: Why QSL?)
Date sent: 	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 22:02:45 GMT

On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:26:08 -0600, you wrote:

=I have received reports from several DXers around the world for Radio Costeña,
=which is 10 minutes drive from where I live.

Dear Elmer,

I think you did almost anything to get in contact with the station director! It's a
miracle to receive a QSL from such a station!
Yes indeed Radio Internacional had a nice QSL card, of wich I have one. I think
this gives a idea how diffecult it is to receive QSL's from this kind of stations.

Good luck!
Ruud Vos

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 	"Henrik Klemetz"
Subject: 	SV: [HCDX]: How QSL? (was: Why QSL?)
Date sent: 	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:13:59 +0200

=
= It's sad, but true.
= This is a message from "Elmer D. Escoto R."

I sympathize with you, Elmer. But in my experience (over a couple of decades now),
I know that there is no station manager that you cannot convince in the end.

The report you deliver may be devoid of value to the station, but you may still
sell it. It´s up to the messenger to attach the "price lable" to the report.
Now, please get me right. I have never experienced that money was an object when
trying to obtain a verie. Actually, I think money, or enclosing a green back
dollar, has ruined the whole thing. But as a roving QSL-manager you should have
plenty of time and patience to spend as well as abilities to do some talking.

On one occasion, I had to wait for more than an hour and a half for a manager to
turn up at his office. When he showed, at 11 am, and finding a distant visitor
 (I had written previously to say that I was going to see him) waiting for him in
the lounge, he told his secretary that he would take me out to have a cup of coffee
with me in a cafe "so as not to be bothered by other callers".

As it happened, this gentleman was not to return to his office that day.
We had an "aperitivo" and then lunch. Later, in the afternoon, he took his car to
show me some of the nice outskirts of the town.

This happened well before the era of cellular phones, so no one "bothered" the man
with any call, but it did cross my mind that he might be missing one or two
appointments that afternoon while he was entertaining me.

This happened in Colombia.

To be sure, there was no money in there, only the money and time the station
manager spent, just for the fun of it, on his occasional visitor.

In neighbouring Ecuador, I had several consecutive meetings with two wellknown
broadcasting executives in order to get The Thing done.
One of them was later to be elected Mayor of Quito, and the other one was the
President of the Asociación Ecuatoriana de Radiodifusión, later to become the owner
of the Tele Amazonas network.

I am talking of the managers of Radiodifusora Tarqui and Radio Nacional Espejo,
respectively. At one point, during the second meeting with Gerardo Brborich, of
RNE, he showed me a drawer bulging with reports from abroad. "Why don´t you prepare
this QSL letter yourself and send it out to some of these people. There are plenty
of those coupons in there (=IRC´s). You can use them in your country, can´t you?"

So I picked out a dozen good reports and sent out the QSL´s to them. Some of the
reporters even received pocket agendas and/or wall calendars with the station logo
in them. There were sufficient IRC´s to pay for the postage. And to me, this was
great fun.

Upon receipt of their letters, some of the addressees, although not all of them,
came back to say thank you to their ad hoc QSL manager

I still have copies of the blank QSL letter the manager signed for me, if someone
is interested. That was in 1974.

I have similar blank form letters from other stations, too. What about Radio
Chinchaycocha, in Peru?

The average Latin American is interested in people, and so he may be prepared to do
a favour, whatever it is, either to give you a pennant or to acknowledge a message
devoid of any commercial value to him. So if you start to talk about money in this
connection, this will probably ruin the whole thing.

To the middleman it may take a while to explain to the executive what someone else
may or may not have heard. "Well, I happen to know this guy. He is a friend of
mine. Now, he is not very fluent in the language, but I believe he tries to say
that.. (etc). As you can see, he is making a real effort... (etc) " Such talking
will reassure the v/s that he is not being had. Sometimes the gibberish listed as
pro gramme details might give a wrong impression. At least, I have seen this kind
of talking work.

A Latin himself would probably not mention a lot of programme details in his
letter, only the name of the programme or some other tangible reference to the
programme content.

Sometimes one may face problems even with a reasonably good report. Once, in
Mexico, I gave the manager of a wellknown MW station a tightly written one-page
letter with all of the usual stuff in it, and the details, not too many,
were quite in order, too.

However, having glanced through the letter, the manager looks at me, not without
some impatience, saying, "So what´s the thing this chap wants from me?"

His question made me review what the DXing hobby was all about.

In other words, to "fetch" a QSL for onself is one thing. To get it for someone
else in an altogether different matter. Now, when you learn that QSL´s brought back
by intermediaries are less valuable than normal QSL´s (a common viewpoint among
fundamentalist DXers), you suddenly realize that no one appreciates your effort..
It´s not just that you deliver a letter. It´s much more than that. If you wish to
pick up an answer, you have to fight for it.

Nonethless, during the past few years in Colombia, I accepted to clear a couple of
reports. Those were special cases. Just as grammarians would say, there is no rule
without an exception.

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From: 	(Joachim Stiller)
Subject: 	Re: [HCDX]: Why QSL?
Date sent: 	Thu, 11 May 2000 22:39:00 +0100

Hi list:

Sorry to be a bit late with my cmments but after being back from my nice
holiday at Mallorca I read this...

= = I am such a guy wich ask as last attempt a embassy to help me to
= = QSL a station,
= = for me this is not a diffrence when you visit a station and ask a
= = QSL and the
= = way I do.
=
= Rubbish. For what do you ask your embassy to help you, if not with
= the intention to increase pressure on the station? Sorry to say so,
=....
= But after such an experience they won't certainly do it again. It's
= nothing but a bloody unfair practice to other DXers.
=
= Martin

And it's the same old story. I think we all have our tricky ways
getting confirmations, and I've gathered quite some. By the way, the
best trick is to write a comprehensive report.

However, I have to agree with Martin and Julius: a letter from an
embassy is kind of an official mail and this is NOT the same than the
help of another DX-er (like the friendly Winter Monges) or a personal
visit to the station.

Visiting a station and telling them why you want a QSL possibly means
opening them up for others. Maybe this is the first time that anyone
tells them why on earth they should respond to people that listen to
their programmes thousands of miles beyond their service area.

I'm afraid a letter from an embassy will do the contrary.

73's de JOACHIM
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