The 'Giovanni Bellabarba' Discussion -Page
A page about QSL's for "questionable
reception reports" containing no or wrong details :
back to the main-page : www.schoechi.de/bellabar.html
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Discussion about G.Bellabarba
Discussion in MWDX-ML
Discussion in Play-DX-ML (1)
Discussion in Play-DX-ML
(2)
Discussion summary in
DXLD Discussion
with SWB (via DXLD)
Accusations by WIK in SWB 1510
Press release by Play-DX - Aug 2003
Discussion about G. Bellabarba :
Discussion in MWDX-ML :
April 7, 2003 - from
Finland
A terrible example of
Bellabarba's work can be seen on Radio Nika's home page
at http://www.nikafm.ru/dx.htm
He has copied every detail (date, time, frequency and
even programme details) into his report from a logging,
made by Finnish dx-er Jorma Mäntylä. This is what
happens to your loggings if you make them public ...
The programme details in Jorma's logging are exactly what
Bellabarba has in his own report. However, after
relistening to his tape Jorma changed the details a
little, thus resulting in a bit different wording in his
report.
This is not the only case unfortunately. Every year
Bellabarba sends hundreds of fake reception reports based
on other dx-ers loggings. Who is this Bellabarba
actually? Does he really exist or is it just a cover name
by some other dx-er?
Commets please! How can we stop this?
.......
April 7, 2003 - from Australia
Well I don't think there
is much anyone can do about it. It's not nice but what
can you do?
People like this only cheat themselves and really there
is no gratification in getting verifications back for
stations that others have heard. It's like collecting
postcards. Nice view but never having been there. There
is absolutely no satisfaction or emotional attachment to
any of it.
It's a bit like people swapping or selling QSL's.. why
bother?
I think the big worry is whether it ruins our chances (at
some stations) of getting stuff back in the future.
.......
April 7, 2003 - from Italy
Bellabarba does exist indeed. As far as I
know, he lives in or near Bologna and enjoys this odd
hobby of report faking together with his son. Don't ask
me *why*, I am not a psychiatrist.
How can this be stopped? Good question. Law does not deal
with report faking, therefore one can't simply ask a
judgefor a (deserved) hanging sentence.
One interpretation of this pathology is that it can be
'useful'. This is the view of Dario Monferini, who is in
friendly terms with Mr. Bellabarba and regularly
publishes his 'verifications' on 'PlayDX'. Dario says
that Bellabarba's QSLs are useful sources of station
manager's names, addresses and other informations. I
strongly disagree with Dario: although I don't send
reports or collect verifications, I think that Bellabarba
is a shame for the whole DXing community and even more
for Italian DXing. Dario's objection that 'Bellabarba
never claimed to be a DXer, he simply collects
verifications' is bull****: the guy sends 'reception
reports', not simply sample qsl requests.
I don't see any easy solution to the problem. Sending
'warnings' to every station on the planet would be
ridicolous. Banning Bellabarba from the DXing community
is useless, as he is not interested in any contact
outside his own world. As far as I know, his 'stage' at
present is just PlayDX where Dario, deaf to everybody's
pleas, goes on publishing the Qsl's from 'DXer
Bellabarba' - and losing readers in the meantime. But I
am not at all sure that exhibitionism is part of
Bellabarba's pathology.
Maybe a (snail) mail action from DXers around the world,
writing Bellabarba how they feel about him?
.......
April 9, 2003 - from Italy
We know under almost all religious stations in US there are fanatics... so
this demonstration of total lack of knowing about the broadcasting propagation rules is a clear demonstration almost all the qsl sent out by
religious broadcasters are just "thank you for writing" if Bellabarba did
not wrote a fake report.... this should have not been possible to be shown....
Same goes for all the Japanese radio stations.....
Or may be you prefere ... imagine a world with only clever verifiers ???
Almost 100 religious stations has replied positively to the Bellabarba fake
reports... so you has been able to find one.... look at the Martin Schoech
Qsl pages and you will discover many more, cause Martin is putting ALL
TOGETHER the replies of Bellabarba fake reports and the replies of correct
reports..... of other Dxers...and I guess this is not correct....may be also
Jim Solatie will agree... ???
If you dear reader wish to contact Mr. Carlo Bellabarba this is his e-mail :
ojqbel@tin.it just asking " why do you do this ??"
.......
April 9, 2003 - from Germany
Sorry, Dario, but I disagree. Not all of the religious stations are run
by lunatics, and the fact, that Bellabarba is faking reports has nothing
to do with the kind of station. And it is a pain in the arse, if you manage to hear for example a first-from Germany RSL, send a report and
the answer is: Pah, nothing special at all, we even get reports from Italy. (If you get a QSL at all! Another possibility is, that the
station engineer is a clever one, and getting Bellabarba-reports is spoiling the image so severely, that in the future he'll throw reports
by other DXers into the dustbin).
Of course there are plenty stations QSLing every nonsense they receive. Should a honest DXer refrain from sending them a good report?
.......
April 9, 2003 - from Belgium
Dario is clearly not a regular visitor of the valuable QIP pages of Martin
Schoech. Otherwise he would have noticed that Martin has put all the stories about Bellabarba on separate pages with a lot of comments from
DX-magazines. Those pages makes it very clear that Mr. Bellabarba is a
cheater.
BTW : I don't think that there really is a DXer with the name Bellabarba.
I merely think that this is an alias of an Italian Play DX "DXer". Maybe a
well known one. Maybe the same one that cheated the world with the Radio San
Marino Short wave service. No further comment...
.......
April 9, 2003 - from Italy
no, Bellabarba really exists, I met him in person several years ago in Bologna. You can even find his address and phone number on the Italian
White Pages. The DXer behind Radio San Marino is another one, absolutely not related to
Bellabarba.
I couldn't disagree more with Dario Monferini's opinion. May be U.S. religious broadcasters aren't great DX experts, but this doesn't justify
sending fake reports to any kind of radio station (BC, utility, NDBs...)
all over the world.
.......
April 9, 2003 - from Finland
Bellabarba really exists - Do you know if he collects stickers and verifications for himself, or is he selling them to someone else?
.......
April 10, 2003 - from Finland
Martin, this is EXACTLY the point!!! You put it down so well!
[And it is a pain in the arse, if you manage to hear for example a first-from Germany RSL, send a report and
the answer is: Pah, nothing special at all, we even get reports from Italy.]
A good example is KCNM Saipan 1080 kHz. I heard them two eyars ago. When they replied, they told me that it is the second report they have received from Europe and the first one was from Bologna.
Well, DXing is just a hobby and I should't get upset ... but it is a dear hobby and behaviour like
this really pisses me off!
.......
April 10, 2003 - from myself/Germany
= Dario is clearly not a regular visitor of the valuable
= QIP pages of Martin Schoech. Otherwise he would
Well Guido, I do not know if Dario reads my pages .. by anyway he is contributing to
them by sending in the Play DX qsl logs. And that are a lot of QSL-logs !
= have noticed that Martin has put all the stories about Bellabarba
= on separate pages with a lot of comments from DX-magazines.
= Those pages makes it very clear that Mr. Bellabarba is a cheater.
That is true, the url is http://www.schoechi.de/bellabar.html
(updated yesterday -including the latest discussions - without names.)
But I also incorporated all the Bellabarba qsl logs itself into my pages (4
years I kept them on a separate page, but I finally incorporated his logs).
I follow Darios explanations - and my own point of view is 'when you about
the 'origin' of these 'reports/qsls' they logs can still be useful'.
Thus - I present both, the source (the copies of the reports) and the comments - everyone could draw his own conclusions.
= I don't think that there really is a DXer with the name Bellabarba. I
= merely think that this is an alias of an Italian Play DX "DXer".
Nice speculation, but already 'cleared' by Fabrizio.
= well known one. Maybe the same one that cheated the
= world with the Radio San Marino Short wave service.
That was definitely some else. Someone who lived in Italy for some time in
the past ... And not all answeres were mailied from ITA/SMR - some came
from another city/country ..
.......
April 10, 2003 - from Italy
I can underwrite Fabrizio in every aspect, included Bellabarba existence in life as a person (actually there are or was two of them, a father and son...). And by the way, that's another good example of the infamous Bellabarba (and other fakers' one must admit) "collateral damages". As a honest dx-er and Play Dx contributor I feel hurt and offended by Guido's theory, but there's little I could reply as such, other tnan bad reputation is no contagious illness, Guido. I know a vast majority of people within and around Play Dx circle who don't deserve your scalding and summary judgement. But there the judgement lives on, and I'm convinced Bellabarba (and Dario's endorsement, alas) have a negative role in all that. Let's fight, honestly, against all fakers. In and outside Bologna.
.......
April 10, 2003 - from Italy
= Do you know if he collects stickers and verifications for himself, or is
he selling them to someone else?
I don't know for sure, but I think it's a personal collection, as I never
saw those QSLs around.
Of course, with the new market for QSLs on eBay, you can never know what
the future will be for faked verifications: this commerce could expand the
hunt for interesting QSLs to be sold to collectors and faked reports would
be an attractive shortcut to earn some easy money.
.......
April 10, 2003 - from Belgium
Hello Andy, I wasn't thinking about you Andy, honestly! If you interpreted my lines as
such, I'm sorry about that. And I am absolutely not generalising about this. No I don't think that all Play-dx DXers and/or Italian DXers are
practising the hobby like Bellabarba. I haven't said that.
Maybe it's better to talk a bit more about the hobby itself. This discussing is more or less becoming off-topic...
.......
April 10, 2003 - from Italy
I know! I said I was feeling hurt in a very general sense, not
because of you specifically. When people like CB act like that, it's
a whole category which ends up under a very bad light and that's another reason why one should be very angry with him/them. I'm afraid
you're not the only one to suspect there's something or someone else behind a funny name... And while I still want to encourage all of you
not to make too general assumptions when approaching this topic, I
can really understand your reactions. I, at least, tend to react exactly like this. It should not be intended as a justification
toward "racist" attitudes, of course. But yours, Guido, cleary was NOT racism and I certainly don't feel as a victim. Let's say I
feel "excluded" from something I'm proud and happy to belong to and I blame Bellabarba for this.
But it starts getting too complicated for my tastes. We'd better get back to the MW band. The real one.
.......
April 10, 2003 - from Italy
Hi JIM, Really curious question, why you ask if he sells verifications card or
stickers ? Do you want to buy some one ??? I have seen in eBay many FAMOUS
Dxers are selling their rare QSLcards, and they are getting lot of money,
Mr.Carlo Bellabarba will NEVER sell his INCREDIBLE personal collection and
as far as I known he is very much careful to the replies he receive (he call
them QSO) he has 30000 differents in 35 years of activity started by his
father Giovanni (luckly he is no more interested to this "sport activity"....) Carlo is his son (he is not married,unfortunatly) he is
spending ALL HIS TIME , to compile letters to be sent to radio stations
FM,AM,SW, and even Utility stations.... The "replies" are all catalogued by
country and ALL THE ITEMS he receive usually are together the replies....
they are stored in two rooms.... and he doesn't sell them...sorry.
Usually he surfs the WEB searching for TIPS... he look at the TIPS...and
start to compile the letters.
Well I agree this is not a correct way.... but unfortunatly we have MANY
bulletins on the WEB doing the same... and rarely these DX sources report
the first REPORTER... all report the LAST reporter, cause is too much work
to report the original source....only Glenn Hauser is doing the perfect service.
I think it is a good idea Jim to write messages to Carlo Bellabarba.... he
surely will reply to all the messages he will receive with greetings for
coming EASTER time....
But... please don't hope he will ever sell one of his "precious QSO documents"... these are his life...
Well I don't want to take too much time... but just another exemple of Religious fanatic station, Radio America in Paraguay.... the manager has
confirmed all the reports from Europe (naturally also the one of Mr.Carlo
Bellabarba).... WHY ?? cause he needs letters to go on with his station and
needs founds $$$$$$ the "US brothers" are sending only if he shown his broadcast has been heard in the whole world....
Every one is doing his business.... [..]
PS: I start to believe the Faiallo people want the "head" of Mr.Carlo Bellabarba cause some one living in Finland one year ago told to the whole
world in Italy there are only fake reporters...... Of corse is up to you evaluate this particular item.... and please do not
mix the two stories....
.......
April 12, 2003 - from Finland
I would very much urge people like Jim Solatie not to "surrender" with
the threat caused by Mr. Bellabarba. I'd still encourage people to share the
information they get about the stations. There is a depressingly fast decline in the flow of information on all the mailing lists. (HCDX for
example). The same with various DX bulletins. I don't think all of it can be
caused Mr. B. In my mind Mr. B's action is more than anything a fine excuse
for hiding the valuable information from others. It should be a "duty" of a
DXer to share any information that helps another hobbyist to get a QSL or
catch a rare station. Pat Martin for example has shown the way. The same
guys that hide information shamelessly utilize the information that is revealed by the "bold" people who are not afraid of Mr. B. Besides,
everybody can easily add in his automated Word document report form: "NB.
There's a guy called BELLABARBA who may approach you with a fake reception
report looking exactly like mine. He is a bastard trying to destroy my
hobby. Don't respond to him. It is a kind of 'spam'". I think it should help
a lot. It is not of too much trouble. If it doesn't work, then let's try to
figure out something more effective together.
Besides, if it is so easy to get a QSL for a fake report, what is the value
of QSL nowadays as a proof of reception happened? Wouldn't it be better to
just collect recordings instead of teasing the already exhausted employees
at the stations with our reports? Instead of reports being interesting as in
the olden days, stations find them nowadays being just irritating and causing extra work.
.......
April 12, 2003 - from Brazil
I strongly agree with Mauno that the main effect of this "game" is the
fast decline in the flow of good and fresh information. You may see that many Dxers in this and other forums only alert collegues when a
QSL of a new station is received. I am impressed, while dxing in Italy, how impossible is to find real time information on tips, what people is
listening to, especially on mw. It remembers me the pre-Internet era, when you were looking forward receving foreign publications just to
check what had happened two weeks before the same day, say, in
Scandinavia or UK.
I haven't sent reports for years but I can understand people fully involved in this side of the hobby. The other effect is the gradual
loss of credibility of some parts and bulletins, but this is "his" problem, not ours.
.......
April 15, 2003 - from Norway
But to be completely honest...I do agree with all of the the dxers complaining about the
referred person concerning fake reports! In real life... if you copy a company's "big selling product"...you're in real trouble!!
But the term "he is a bastard" could been unsaid.....
Discussion in Play-DX-ML (Part 1) :
April 8, 2003 - from Italy
MA SANTA PACE. QUESTI GURU DEL DX
MONDIALE NON HANNO DI MEGLIO A CUI
PENSARE ?
SE BELLABARBA SI DIVERTE IN QUELLA MANIERA CHE LO
LASCIASSERO FARE !
A CHE SERVE PARLARE DI PATOLOGIE E SIMILI AMENITA' ?
VOGLIAMO CREARE IL SADDAM DEL DEL DX-ING ? VOGLIAMO
CREARE UNA SQUADRACCIA CON TANTO DI OLIO DI RICINO PER
CONVINCERE IL BELLABARBA A DESISTERE DAL SUO HOBBY ?
MA SIAMO SERI !!!! CHE OGNUNO PRATICHI I SUOI PASSATEMPI
COME MEGLIO CREDE !
.......
April 8, 2003 - from Italy
Io ho smesso di collezionare QSL da
parecchi anni e potrei in linea di principio concordare
con questo parere ultra-liberista. Se non fosse per un
piccolo particolare: grazie a Bellabarba gli italiani
finiscono per fare la figura dei cialtroni, imbroglioni e
un'altra cosa che finisce per "oni", ma che non
viene ostentata sui manifesti elettorali (non in modo
troppo esplicito, almeno). Hai un bel dire che certe
deduzioni le fanno solo i razzisti, ma intanto le fanno e
io non mi consolo affatto pensando che tanto sono
razzisti, mi incavolo di brutto. Ma ripeto, fin qui si
potrebbe essere d'accordo e in ogni caso non auspicherei
l'olio di ricino.
Il vero problema, pero' e' l'effetto delle assurde
attivita' di Bellabarba sugli altri collezionisti di QSL.
Quelli che hanno il brutto vizio di ascoltare davvero le
stazioni che riportano, intendo. In base al principio del
laissez passer assoluto, un collezionista di quadri
antichi dovrebbe fare i salti di gioia pensando ai
falsari. Ovviamente non e' cosi', anche se nessuna legge
vieta di copiare un quadro (le cose cambiano quando tenti
di venderlo come originale).
Siamo una comunita' ancora piu' ristretta e non e'
possibile pensare "ognuno pratichi i suoi passatempi
come meglio crede". Questo puoi andarlo a dire
chesso', a un nudista. Tanto le spiagge a disposizione di
chi porta il costume ci saranno sempre. Puoi dirlo a chi
considera gourmand la polpetta di McDonald: i ristoranti
da tre stellette non chiuderanno per questo. Ma quante
stazioni decidono di non rispondere (magari solo agli
italiani...) quando ricevono quelle porcherie di
"rapporti d'ascolto"?
Insomma, io sostengo che praticando l'hobby come meglio
crede Bellabarba danneggi tutti gli altri, me compreso,
perche' anche se non colleziono QSL la gente mi ride
dietro quando segnalo stazioni difficili. Ho almeno
diritto di incazzarmi o faccio anch'io la figura del guru
arrogante?
.......
April 8, 2003 - from Italy
SONO PIU' DI 30 ANNI CHE ANCHE IO HO IL
BRUTTO VIZIO DI ASCOLTARE DAVVERO EMISSIONI RADIO DI OGNI
TIPO E UNA COSA E' CERTA: AL DI LA DI OGNI FORMA DI
ASSOCIAZIONISMO, COLLABORAZIONE, ECC. QUANDO SONO DAVANTI
AL RICEVITORE SONO DA SOLO ! LA SODDISFAZIONE O
L'INSODDISFAZIONE DI OTTENERE O MENO CERTI RISULTATI E'
SOLO MIA !
RARAMENTE HO MANDATO TIPS AI VARI BOLLETTINI E
FRANCAMENTE DI FAR SAPERE A CASA DEL DIAVOLO CHE AD
ANAGNI HO ASCOLTATO QUESTA O QUELL'ALTRA STAZIONE NON ME
NE IMPORTA PROPRIO ! MEN CHE MENO MI IMPORTA DEI GIUDIZI
CHE POSSANO DARE SUGLI ITALIANI ..ONI I SOLONI AMERICANI
O SCANDINAVI !
NON RICORDO CON PRECISIONE SE TU FOSSI O MENO COINVOLTO
NELL'ASSURDA POLEMICA DELLA STAZIONE MESSICANA IN ONDE
MEDIE ASCOLTATA IN ITALIA, MA COMUNQUE.. E' QUELLO
L'ESEMPIO DI DIALETTICA NEL DXING ? INSOMMA DEI GIUDIZI
ALTRUI NON MI IMPORTA NIENTE, MENTRE CI TENGO MOLTISSIMO
A NON FARMI DIRE "FAI QUESTO" O "NON FARE
QUELLO". MI SEMBRA CHE IL CONCETTO SIA BEN CHIARO O
NO ?
OGNI DXER COSTRUISCE DA SE LA PROPRIA CREDIBILITA' E STA
AI QSL MANAGER DELLE STAZIONI DISCERNERE TRA RAPPORTI
BUONI E RAPPORTI TAROCCATI. IO PERSONALMENTE NON MI SENTO
NE RAPPRESNTATO NE DANNEGGIATO DA BELLABARBA, IL QUALE
NON COMMETTENDO NULLA DI ILLEGALE, PER QUANTO MI
RIGUARDA, PUO' CONTINUARE A SPEDIRE ALLE STAZIONI TUTTO
CIO' CHE VUOLE !
SE POI LO SFITTICO MOVIMENTO DEL RADIOASCOLTO MONDIALE HA
BISOGNO DI UN "VILLAIN" PER GIUSTFICARE SE
STESSO CONTINUANDO AD OCCUPARSI DI QUESTO SIGNORE
SIGNIFICA SIGNORI MIEI CHE SIAMO ARRIVATI ALLA FRUTTA !
MA NON C'ERA CERTO BISOGNO DI BELLABARBA PER CAPIRLO.
CIAO [..], OVVIAMENTE NIENTE DI PERSONALE IN TUTTO QUESTO
OK ?
.......
April 8, 2003 - from Italy
Si', anch'io ero coinvolto nella faccenda della radio messicana e continuo =a pensare che senza la
nomea generata anche per colpa di Bellabarba le cose =sarebbero andate diversamente. Hai perfettame
nte ragione quando dici che di =certi "pareri" dovremmo sbattercene e che e' antipatico sentirsi di
re quello= che si deve o non si deve fare, ma io, diversamente da te, mi sento parte d=i una comuni
ta' e mi fa piacere condividere, quando posso, le informazioni. =E la presenza di Bellabarba e' per
lomeno destabilizzante in un quadro di rap=porti che sono di per se' molto difficili (e' raro purtr
oppo, riuscire a dir=e qualcosa di nuovo a un finlandese, quando si tratta di onde medie). Tieni =c
onto poi che qui non stiamo parlando di un mucchio di arroganti rincoglioni=ti - oddio, qualche rin
coglionito ci sara' anche. Se e' sbagliato fare di Be=llabarba un novello Saddam, dovremmo evitare
di far passare Solatie per un B=ush...
No, qui abbiamo davanti, sullo stesso piano, persone che dovremmo considera=re affini, che molto sp
esso hanno parecchie cose da insegnarci. Se mi permet=ti, il fatto che Bellabarba arrivi e dal bass
o della sua piccola mania perso=nale - dal mio punto di vista niente affatto innocente - si comport
i come il= classico elefante nella cristalleria, non mi sta bene per niente. Saro' anc=h'io un "all
ineato" ma in questa nostra comunita' esistono precise regole no=n scritte che quasi tutti si sforz
ano di rispettare e che Bellabarba infrang=e continuamente. Solo perche' a un certo punto ha deciso
di autonominarsi "d=x-er" e di collezionare tutte le QSL del mondo.
Davanti a certe critiche e a certi atteggiamenti "arroganti" nei nostri con=fronti noi italiani ris
pondiamo con un orgoglio nazionalistico un po' fuori =luogo, mettendola subito su un piano di vitti
mismo mascherato - male - da ve=nature di anti-razzismo. Io invece alle critiche cerco di prestare
ascolto, =perche' molto spesso dalle critiche, e da una reale dialettica, nascono spun=ti positivi
per tutti. Se poi qualcuno mi accusa di essere un falsario per r=agioni puramente razzistiche mi in
cazzo, ma cerco lo stesso di argomentare. =Il tuo atteggiamento, scusa la franchezza, risponde all'
arroganza (tutta da =dimostrare, nel caso di Solatie) con una arroganza che non e' certo piu' giu=s
tificabile.
Bellabarba si vuole divertire? Faccia pure... Ma dovrebbe essere piu' consa=pevole degli effetti de
l suo misero sollazzo: la comunita' internazionale de=i dx-er fa benissimo quando cerca di isolarlo
e sputtanarlo. E non deve esse=re censurata per questo. La solidarieta' nei confronti di Bellabarb
a - quand=o non sia un doveroso rispetto per uno che obiettivamente qualche problemino= ce l'ha (co
me tutti, dirai tu, ma guarda che ne' tu ne' io scriviamo a staz=ioni che non abbiamo mai ascoltato
) - mi pare proprio sprecata. Bellabarba =non e' un "bouc emissaire"... Non e' un "villain" costru
ito ad arte dalla Sp=ectre del dx-ing internazionale, prevenuta contro noi poveri italiani. E', o=
si comporta come, uno squallido falsario. Solatie fa benissimo a dirlo.
Sicuramente niente di personale, ci mancherebbe, anzi la discussione mi par=e utile e voglio ringra
ziare Dario per lo spazio concesso. Forse dovremmo an=che ricordare che Play Dx ha sempre trattato
con severita' i falsificatori d=i ascolti...
.......
April 9, 2003 - from Italy
Posso dire la mia? Mi sento molto vicino a quanto afferma Francesco: il
radioascolto è un hobby da "solitari" e la soddisfazione personale per un
ascolto DX viene prima di ogni altra cosa; il rendere pubbliche queste esperienze con altri appassionati nasce più dalla voglia di condividere
queste gratificazioni ed avere un interscambio d'informazioni che non dal
vedere scritto il proprio nome su qualche bollettino (almeno così è per me).
Per questo credo che Bellabarba può essere utile per avere indicazioni più
precise per i nostri rapporti e fa bene il Dario a renderle pubbliche. Io è
da molto tempo che non invio più rapporti alle stazioni, ma ciò non vuol
dire che non ascolto più o che non mi importi più delle QSL, semplicemente
in questo periodo non ho la pazienza di dedicarmi ai rapporti. Le mie piccole soddisfazioni le ho avute e quelle non me le toglie nessuno (ah! se
avessi mandato i rapporti a tutte le stazioni che ascoltai agli albori del
mio hobby col mio "vecchio" SW-55!!), diverse sono state in passato le
stazioni che non mi hanno risposto ai rapporti e non per colpa di Bellabarba! Non credo nemmeno che noi italiani facciamo una figura peggiore
di altri, di bufale ne sono arrivate anche da altri paesi, o no?
Anch'io non ci troverei nessuna soddisfazione nell'hobby di Bellabarba, chiaramente col radioascolto non ha nulla a che fare, se a lui gli garba
così buon per lui; a dir la verità mi da più noia vedere certi ascolti di 2
minuti, magari di uno che sente una portante e via! Un saluto a tutti e buoni DX (veri!)
.......
April 9, 2003 - from Italy
Non capisco. Di quale utilità possono essere segnalazioni di QSL, tanto per dire, di stazioni FM australiane, oltre tutto palesemente fasulle? Non dimentichiamo, inoltre, che si tratta di dati che possono, talora, risultare sì utili (sebbene siano rintracciabili in giro, perché non è che Bellabarba ha doti paranormali e scopre stazioni e indirizzi "impossibili":
clona informazioni altrui), ma per ottenere le sue pseudoconferme prima ha
inviato rapporti fasulli, spesso creando una situazione ostile a ulteriori
rapporti provenienti dall'Italia (o ostile a qualsiasi rapporto tout court).
Questo senza contare lo sputtanamento nei confronti di chi, italiano, il
radioascolto cerca di farlo onestamente, inviando poi le proprie informazioni alla comunità DX nazionale o internazionale: informazioni
anche queste che possono risultare utili, ma senza effetti collaterali deleteri. Non credo che il concetto di "correttezza" sia così desueto,
anche se la situazione italiana corrente il dubbio me lo lascia.
Non mi sembra positivo che, per riempire pagine di un bollettino, si sia
costretti a ricorrere a informazioni di questa provenienza: questo sì è un
segno di decadenza dell'hobby, non il preoccuparsi di un "villain". Anche
perché la storia di Bellabarba inizia trent'anni fa, quando il radioascolto
non era alla frutta, quindi questa obiezione non è fondata. Se poi numerosi
bollettini stranieri non sono più interessati alle informazioni del citato
bollettino, qualche motivo ci sarà, e ho fondati sospetti che le paginate
di QSL taroccate siano parte non irrilevante di questi motivi. Tutti soloni? Tutti tutti tutti?
Non trovo scandaloso che alcuni DXer stranieri stigmatizzino il caso Bellabarba, mi meraviglierei piuttosto del contrario. E non mi dispiace
sottolineare che c'è anche qualche appassionato italiano di radioascolto
che non apprezza l'attività del noto bolognese. Se poi chi la vede così
deve essere considerato un solone, o semplicemente un ...one, bene: solone
non saprei e spero di no, ma mi colloco spontaneamente nel secondo gruppo.
Il fatto che stiamo parlando di un hobby, quindi senza serie conseguenze
pratiche, non giustifica che tutto sia lecito, ammesso e lodevole.
....... .......
Discussion in Play-DX-ML (Part 2) :
April 13, 2003 - from Italy
atteggiamento scorretto di Rocco il quale sa che io non sono iscritto a
questa lista dell NRC-AM e pertanto non avrei potuto rispondere ... mi pare
che il diritto di replica sia ancora sancito dalle Nazioni Unite.... fortunatamente Glenn Hauser lo ha messo nel suo DXLD
http://www.worldofradio.com/dxld3063.txt
Dove ho pututo leggerlo e dove ho inviato le mie argomentazioni.... che mi
auguro di leggere con voi al più presto.... solo il dibattito fatto in modo
civile può portare a positive soluzioni... atteggiamenti come quello di
Cotroneo sono decisamente inconcludenti.
PS: questo messaggio viene inviato anche a Rocco Cotroneo per conoscenza
come mi sembra giusto fare...se poi Rocco Cotroneo desidera controbattere e
discuterne "civilmente" la porta di PLAYDX Group è e sarà sempre aperta al
dialogo.
.......
April 13, 2003 - from Brazil
Mi spiace, non sono più iscritto a Play-Dx e sai perchè. Sei tu invece che dovresti andare sull'NRC e rispondere ad almeno 25 persone che ti danno del coglione. O vuoi denunciarli tutti alle Naioni Unite? Ti rammento che anche in quel gruppo, come su mw-dx, non siamo stati NOI ad iniziare il discorso, ma delle altre persone: Solatie in uno e Brian Smith nell'altro. Io ho risposto perchè si sono messi ad insultare gli "Italian dxers" e a citare alcune delle tue prodezze. Se poi il tuo amico Glenn Hauser ha scelto la mia lettera in mezzo a 50 vuol dire che gli è proprio piaciuta....
.......
April 13, 2003 - from Italy
Grazie per le informazioni visto che Glenn ha scelto la tua... potresti inviarmi le altre per conoscenza...??
.......
April 13, 2003 - from Italy
mi pare che David abbia sollevato un paio di argomenti degni di attenzione
e di precisazione.
=The discussion concerning the QSL activities of Signore Bellabarba (DXLD
=3-063) raises the need to differentiate between 'collectible QSLs' and
='personally reported QSLs'.
=The DX hobby is familiar with those who collect QSL cards and letters in
=return for their own report of reception of a radio signal. The classic
='personally reported QSL'.
=More recently, some of us have also become familiar with those (either in
=the hobby or outside it), who buy, sell or trade QSLs for a variety of reasons.
=Such reasons have nothing to do with sending a reception report. The QSL
=card is de-linked from the act of sending one's own reception report. They
=become a form of 'collectible QSL'.
Indubbiamente. Ma qui non si sta discutendo di commercio esplicito di QSL
originali, comprate e vendute al di fuori dell'hobby. Anche io, su eBay, ho
comprato alcune QSL che mi interessavano per motivi storici: QSL che
risalgono a un'epoca in cui non praticavo ancora il radioascolto, o
addirittura non ero ancora nato. Ovviamente non le considero parte delle
QSL mie personali che ho ottenuto con i miei rapporti d'ascolto, né mi
sognerei mai di segnalarle su un bollettino come frutto della mia attività
di DXer. Sono cose completamente diverse; l'argomento della compravendita
(più che legittima) di QSL intese come oggetto da collezione non è stato
sollevato in questa sede.
=A letter to a radio station asking for a copy of their QSL card is not a
=faked report.
=However, it would be helpful if the collector made clear the fact they
=just want to have a QSL card and that the request is not linked to a
=report of reception.
Certamente. Se Bellabarba scrivesse alle stazioni radio chiedendo una copia
della loro QSL, specificando che il suo non è un rapporto d'ascolto ma la
semplice richiesta di un oggetto da collezione, ci sarebbe poco da
eccepire; si potrebbe al massimo considerarlo un comportamento stravagante,
ammesso che lo sia, ma nulla di più.
=Listing collectible QSLs in DX magazines as if they had been received for
=a personal reception report is unacceptable. Sending a fake reception
=report or misrepresenting the request to obtain a QSL is completely
=unacceptable.
Il punto della questione è questo. Elencare QSL da collezione sui
bollettini DX, come se fossero state ricevute in risposta a un rapporto
d'ascolto personale, è inaccettabile. Inviare un rapporto d'ascolto
falsificato o camuffare la richiesta per ottenere una QSL è completamente
inaccettabile. Faccio miei i commenti di David, con i quali sono totalmente
d'accordo.
=However, listing or discussing such QSLs in a separate 'radio
=collectibles' section within a DX magazine seems perfectly reasonable.
Già. In una sezione separata, in cui si elencano dati ottenuti in modo
corretto, non falsificando rapporti grazie a dettagli rubati a ignari DXer.
Non è una questione da poco, mi pare.
=Some of the information supplied (such as name of person who sent the QSL
=card) may even help those wanting to send reception reports to obtain a
=personal QSL.
Su questo punto torno a ripetere che non sono assolutamente d'accordo. Le
QSL sono state ottenute clonando i dati già forniti da ignari DXer, quindi
dati già disponibili. Non c'è nulla di originale o di prezioso. Solo
refurtiva.
I dati veramente utili sono quelli in precedenza pubblicati dai DXer ai
quali sono stati sottratti per un uso altamente improprio e ai quali non
viene dato il credito cui avrebbero diritto.
=How the DX community handles the 'collectible QSL' as opposed to the
='personally reported QSL' is clearly an issue only now being considered.
=Hopefully with maturity.
Certamente. Fare chiarezza su ciò che è lecito, corretto e ammissibile è
importante. La mia personale opinione è che il comportamento di Bellabarba
non è magari illegale, ma non è né corretto né ammissibile. E trovo che la
pubblicazione dei suoi dati sia a dir poco inopportuna, se non decisamente
moralmente scorretta nei confronti dei DXer ai quali, in primis, tali dati
sono stati sottratti.
Chiedo venia se mi sono permesso una discussione etico morale, per di più
non in linea con il pensiero del moderatore.
.......
April 13, 2003 - from Italy
Hi David, I do hope it's all fault of my regrettably poor English. Surely I can't really get what you're say
ing. Should I "open my mind" such as to wellcome within the "DX" community a guy who've been sending out thirty thousands ridicously faked reception reports? Is that a legitimate "collection" according to your generous standard? When Mr. Bellabarba is not pretending having travelled nearby a station (he never ventures out of Bologna but, look!, from his "reports" one would think he tracked every single US States, Alaska and Hawaii included, not to mention every single Southern Sea island...), he invariably writes: "I have heard you here in Bologna". And that happens with New Zealand stations on FM too. Or with mediumwave Pacific stations "heard" at 2 P.M., Bologna time.
As for that "rather excitable Brazilian"... Please read again, David. Rocco's comment starts with "As a proud Italian and NRC member...", Rocco is an Italian national and a correspondent for the leading Italian daily paper, the Corriere della Sera (with a circulation of 700.000). He's been DX-ing
for some 28 years and as far as I know him (in the last 28 years) he seldom loses his temper, noth
withstanding his long term residence in an admittedly hotter Rio... As it happens with me, Rocco too is sick and tired of reading what the whole world, with very few exceptions, has to comment about Mr. Bellabarba and his achievements. Which falls upon the head of us Italians as s**t hitting the
proverbial fan.
.......
April 13, 2003 - from Italy
= Certamente. Se Bellabarba scrivesse alle stazioni radio chiedendo una
copia
= della loro QSL, specificando che il suo non è un rapporto d'ascolto ma la
= semplice richiesta di un oggetto da collezione, ci sarebbe poco da
= eccepire; si potrebbe al massimo considerarlo un comportamento stravagante,
= ammesso che lo sia, ma nulla di più.
Credo che, finalmente, dopo giorni di polemiche varie si sia centrato il
vero problema. Un paio d'anni addietro abbiamo fatto degli esperimenti, inviando a emittenti piccole e grandi dei rapporti d'ascolto palesemente
falsi, segnalando addirittura ascolti in orari in cui le emittenti stesse
erano inattive. Ebbene, la percentuale di risposte è stata sensibilmente
alta, provando il fatto che anche da parte delle ormai poche emittenti che
rispondono c'è una assoluta strafottenza nel confermare i rapporti d'ascolto. Le stazioni radio ormai non confermano quasi più, e quelle che lo
fanno (a parte una piccolissima percentuale) non leggono neanche i rapporti.
Sono stato forse uno dei primi parecchi anni fa a cominciare la crociata
Bellabarba, devo però ammettere che grazie ai suoi rapporti fasulli abbiamo
oggi dei database di indirizzi e V/s assolutamente corretti, una mole di
dati che non avremmo mai avuto se non in questo modo. Per chiudere voglio
ricordarvi un particolare: Bellabarba ha inviato, nel periodo in cui si è
cominciata a spargere la voce di questo personaggio, dei rapporti ad emittenti dicendo di averle ascoltate su cassette registrate da altri amici
che erano stati sul luogo in vacanza. E allora, secondo voi è più testa di
cazzo Bellabarba che seppur con mezzi non proprio ortodossi continua ad accrescere la sua collezione (unico scopo di tutto questo) o chi gli
verifica i rapporti? E tutti quelle americane da 1-5 Kw verificate come se
fossero state ascoltate in Europa in pieno giorno? Meditate gente, il problema è ben più grande di quello che pensiamo.
.......
April 13, 2003 - from Italy
I messaggi dell'amico David dalla Nuova Zelanda sono in Inglese, ma lui li può tranquillamente leggere anche in Italiano, dato che la moglie di David conosce e parla perfettamente l'Italiano, pertanto se desiderate dialogare con lui nel gruppo scriveteli pure in Italiano... questo facilita notevolmente il dialogo ed il dibattito, di tutti gli altri iscritti al gruppo che non masticano l'inglese. Scusate se non l'ho fatto sapere subito
.......
April 13, 2003 - from Italy
= Credo che, finalmente, dopo giorni di polemiche varie si sia centrato il
vero problema.
Quello che scrivi, Roberto, e' del tutto corretto ma personalmente contesto= il fatto che questo si
a il vero "vero problema". Hai centrato un aspetto de=lla questione su cui Dario fa leva da anni, e
sul quale e' praticamente impo=ssibile dargli torto. Un gran numero di QSL viene emesso senza alcu
n reale c=ontrollo sul contenuto e la qualita' dei rapporti d'ascolto. Benissimo. Cioe=' malissimo,
ma pur sempre limitato a un eventuale dibattito sul valore dell=e QSL nell'ambito di un hobby che
le considera comunque marginali rispetto a=l reale "core", al nocciolo, del radioascolto: ascoltar
e la radio.
Bellabarba, ormai e' dimostrato, non ascolta la radio. Bellabarba si limita= a dire di aver ascolta
to la radio. Si pone automaticamente fuori dal contes=to del nostro hobby. In buona sostanza, dovre
mmo ignorarlo del tutto. Purtro=ppo, appiccicare a un rapporto d'ascolto falso l'etichetta un po' i
pocrita d=i un presunto "viaggio all'estero" (che Bellabarba non ha comunque fatto, i =suoi sono du
nque falsi rapporti di ascolti mai fatti nel corso di viaggi mai= effettuati) o quella ancora piu'
codina del "valore informativo dei dati" e=' un'operazione degna del famoso Braghettone, il pittore
che in epoche piu' =pruriginose copriva le parti intime nei quadri dei suoi grandi predecessori.=
Bellabarba e' un falsario. Problema che non c'entra assolutamente niente co=l problema del valore d
elle QSL in se'. Se fosse un falsario bravissimo, riu=scirebbe a ingannare comunque qualsiasi V/s.
E in una buona percentuale di c=asi Bellabarba ottiene le sue conferme copiando i dati letti su alt
ri bollet=tini, quindi le sue "informazioni" sono automaticamente di seconda mano e qu=indi inutili.
Abbiamo quindi *due* problemi: quello dei rapporti falsi e quello delle QSL= poco attendibili (lasc
iamo fuori da questo contesto il problema delle QSL c=omperate, o quello delle informazioni DX che
circolano solo in club eslcusiv=i, o quello di chi pubblica guide ed elenchi e fa i soldi vendendol
i a Bella=barba, perche' ci porterebbero troppo lontano). Il primo problema fa molti p=iu' danni de
l secondo. Molte QSL non varranno niente d'accordo, ma un bel nu=mero di dx-er impegnati ascolta st
azioni difficilissime, scrive rapporti ser=issimi, incappa in station manager molto scrupolosi (e m
agari contenti di es=sere stati ascoltati cosi' lontano) e riceve conferme commoventi per la loro=
rarita', accuratezza e valore culturale.
In questi casi, la QSL e' un grande esempio di correttezza, preparazione, c=apacita', solidarieta'
umana, insomma: e' una gran bella storia. Io non scri=vo rapporti da anni, Dario idem. Ma non puo'
usare la questione di Bellabarb=a per svilire qualcosa che ha smesso di interessargli. E secondo me
non puo'= neppure utilizzare le "informazioni" di Bellabarba per incrementare l'autor=evolezza di
Play Dx, che non ha certo bisogno di questi mezzucci per apparir=e un bollettino che e' allo stesso
tempo molto serio (ma non serioso, come c=i insegnano i vari Carnival) e aperto alla collaborazion
e di tutti. Alla fac=cia di certi esclusivisti del dx-ing come casta. Play Dx e' elitario in sens=o
tecnico, ma rimane democratico. Le notizie by Bellabarba a mio parere non =sono un inno alla liber
ta' personale, come sostiene Francesco: sono un insul=to rivolto a chi cerca di praticare bene un h
obby che si sta comunque esting=uendo.
Mandare a carte quarantotto l'istituzione delle QSL, non e' saggio. La vera= libertà infatti e' sec
ondo me dire: "io ascolto ma le QSL non mi interessan=o; a te interessano e non vedo perche' dovrei
metterti a tutti i costi i bas=toni tra le ruote mettendone in dubbio il valore e dando spazio a c
hi sta le=tteralmente uccidendo la QSL di buona qualita' (per non parlare della buona =reputazione
di tanti ascoltatori italiani)".
Play Dx, scusate se dico parole grosse, rischia in questo modo di diventare= complice di Bellabarba
. Ed e' questa sospetta complicita' che in questi gio=rni ha trovato spazio - non per "colpa" di dx
-er italiani - su diverse maili=ng list estere. Sta a noi decidere se i sospetti sono fondati e, se
si', qua=li eventuali contromisure prendere.
from DX LISTENING DIGEST 3-065, April 15, 2003 :
QSLing, Bellabarba, CPRV, Preserving QSLs, tapes, County-hunting. . .
UNPOLITE WAY TO DISCUSS A TOPIC BY MR. COTRONEO
Dear Glenn, thanks very much to put the messages on the Bellabarba
"topic" of the moment. Without your "service" I should not have been
to know the opinion expressed by Mr. Rocco Cotroneo, recently sent to
the NRC, April 11, NRC-AM, in fact I am not member of this club so I
am not able to know this message or other message posted in the NRC-
AM. I guess is not polite to do such attitude, accusing another SWL
without giving the possibilities to let know to the other readers, if
the accused has something to say.... but probably the respectable Mr.
Cotroneo is used to do this already in his dayly activity as reporter
of an Italian newspaper... where usually after something is printed
the reader may only read it...and has no way to let know his opinion
on the "topic". In fact I may assure Mr. Cotroneo has not sent to me
a copy of his message sent to NRC-AM.
Concerning what he said, I may only add the conclusion is quite an
amazing mountain of silly hypothetical suggestions... I have a
collection of 235000 different stickers printed by radio, collected
in 27 years, and I am not able to get the one of Mr. Bellabarba, I
surely will not sleep anymore....
So I support the Bellabarba faking reports and he "pay" this with
precious stickers he receive together the fake replies.... I guess
such theory need a psychiatric help... I leave you free to believe or
not about such theoric fantasies....
The matter is the Mr. Bellabarba fake reports shows clearly many
radio stations especially in the US are replying to the fake reports
automatically, without controlling the details and the time of the
listening. I have no doubts and I agree this is the wrong side of our
beautiful hobby, but the solution is not the one suggested by some
Scandinavian purists SWL : please stop this game.... so no one will
talk any more about the fake reports of Mr. Bellabarba.... so eye
will not see and the teeth will not cry.
No folks...this will not solve the problem... Mr. Bellabarba is not
the one doing this "wrong activity" in Italy.... but other guy
exists ... in US, in Germany, Canada, United Kingdom.... and so on...
don't expect I will tell you the names.
Being QSL-Manager for years for different Pirate stations operating
in Italy on SW I have seen and verified thousands of them... and
believe me I have seen many terrific reports.... and usually I have
replied to this fake reports explaining the station you have listened
was a different one... or your report is not correct... rarely these
fake reporters sent another one...
So I agree totally to the Mr. Jim Solatie suggestion to write e-mails
of protests directly to Mr. Bellabarba... to flood his computer...
almost he will not change e-mail...
Not messages saying "stop this fake reports bastard" as suggested by
someone... this is the wrong way, but explain why his activity is not
right.... after all is just an hobby... even if some one thinks to be
the Best ... or to be First to have got a reply from a rare
Peruvian... and after some months we may discover this rare Peruvian
has replied also to a fake cloned report of Mr. Bellabarba...
Our hobby must be an exchange of informations, a discussion of
topics, even politics topics..... sorry to have keep so much precious
space in the Glenn Hauser DXLD, I think is the only planetary place
we may discuss such Topics, cause Glenn is not like other people
proposing "stop this game". I claim only a worldwide cooperation may
stop this problem... (Dario Monferini, Milano, Apr 13, DX LISTENING
DIGEST)
COLLECTIBLE V PERSONALLY REPORTED QSLS
Dear Glenn, The discussion concerning the QSL activities of Signore
Bellabarba (DXLD 3-063) raises the need to differentiate between
'collectible QSLs' and 'personally reported QSLs'. The DX hobby is
familiar with those who collect QSL cards and letters in return for
their own report of reception of a radio signal. The classic
'personally reported QSL'.
Collecting QSLs like collecting stamps
More recently, some of us have also become familiar with those
(either in the hobby or outside it), who buy, sell or trade QSLs for
a variety of reasons.
Some are building a collection (much like a stamp collector) for
thematic or geographic reasons, for research, for preservation and
conservation purposes, or merely for the fun of collecting..
Like postage stamps, many QSL cards are works of art in their own
right. Many are rare. Many make a cross-over into the hobby of
postcard collecting.
Many QSLs have philatelic value for postmarks, postage stamps and
other markings which interest philatelists.
QSL de-linked from personal reception report
Such reasons have nothing to do with sending a reception report. The
QSL card is de-linked from the act of sending one's own reception
report. They become a form of 'collectible QSL'.
These are all genuine and valid reasons for collecting QSLs although
I think many DXers have a lot of difficulty understanding or
accepting them.
QSLs become valuable collectibles
The 'biggie' is that QSLs and other radio related items (stickers,
Top 40 charts etc) have also become 'collectibles'. with a monetary
value.
Some people see them as items to be traded for profit and it has even
become a business for them. I think DXers are totally unfamiliar with
such people and currently have little tolerance for their activity..
DX community must tolerate other viewpoints
The DX community could usefully accept and adapt to these changes and
exercise tolerance when familiar items develop new meanings for
others who may have little or no interest in reporting reception or
the DX hobby itself.
Some DXers like to collect both 'collectible QSLs' and 'personally
reported QSLs' which confuses others even more.
A letter to a radio station asking for a copy of their QSL card is
not a faked report.
However, it would be helpful if the collector made clear the fact
they just want to have a QSL card and that the request is not linked
to a report of reception.
Misrepresenting QSLs
Listing collectible QSLs in DX magazines as if they had been received
for a personal reception report is unacceptable. Sending a fake
reception report or misrepresenting the request to obtain a QSL is
completely unacceptable.
QSL collectibles may help DXers
However, listing or discussing such QSLs in a separate 'radio
collectibles' section within a DX magazine seems perfectly
reasonable.
Some of the information supplied (such as name of person who sent the
QSL card) may even help those wanting to send reception reports to
obtain a personal QSL.
Personal innuendo and attacks unhelpful
Some of the remarks made in this column recently about named DXers,
QSL collectors and sticker collectors are unhelpful. We all enjoy our
own world of radio, and should tolerate differences of opinion.
How the DX community handles the 'collectible QSL' as opposed to the
'personally reported QSL' is clearly an issue only now being
considered. Hopefully with maturity (David Ricquish, Radio Heritage
Collection http://www.radiodx.com Wellington, New Zealand, April 12,
DX LISTENING DIGEST)
Hi David, I do hope it's all fault of my regrettably poor English.
Surely I can't really get what you're saying. Should I "open my mind"
such as to welcome within the "DX" community a guy who's been sending
out thirty thousand ridiculously faked reception reports? Is that a
legitimate "collection" according to your generous standard? When Mr.
Bellabarba is not pretending having travelled nearby a station (he
never ventures out of Bologna but, look!, from his "reports" one
would think he treked every single US State, Alaska and Hawaii
included, not to mention every single Southern Sea island...), he
invariably writes: "I have heard you here in Bologna". And that
happens with New Zealand stations on FM too. Or with mediumwave
Pacific stations "heard" at 2 P.M., Bologna time.
As for that "rather excitable Brazilian"... Please read again, David.
Rocco's comment starts with "As a proud Italian and NRC member...",
Rocco is an Italian national and a correspondent for the leading
Italian daily paper, the Corriere della Sera (with a circulation of
700.000). He's been DX-ing for some 28 years and as far as I know him
(in the last 28 years) he seldom loses his temper, notwithstanding
his long term residence in an admittedly hotter Rio... As it happens
with me, Rocco too is sick and tired of reading what the whole world,
with very few exceptions, has to comment about Mr. Bellabarba and his
achievements. Which fall upon the head of us Italians as s**t hitting
the proverbial fan. Cheers, (Andrea Lawendel, Milano, DX LISTENING
DIGEST)
Whatever the demerits of BB, he is obviously an aberration, and no
other Italians should be tarred because of him! (gh, DXLD)
Hello Glenn, I think that in the present debate about Mr Bellabarba's
QSLs there is a hidden but important misunderstanding. A common
comment on the publication of his "QSLs" in Dario Monferini's Play DX
is that indeed these verifications come from faked reports, *but* at
least their publication provides useful information to DXers. This is
not true.
As Dario himself said, to produce his reports Mr BB spends most of
his time searching for tips published by DXers on the net. This means
that Mr BB isn't discovering new and hidden information, but perusing
and cloning information *already* available to anybody. Mr BB isn't
an explorer of unknown territories of the radio world, nor a psychic
that can discover impossible-to-find information; he is actually
providing old information that could easily have been found by a
quick search on the net.
So he is providing no useful data to DXers, while unfairly using
information provided by DXers; he is damaging the whole DX community,
giving nothing in return. There is nothing to be gained from the
publication of his "QSLs"; a bulletin that publishes his information
is providing only old information taken from other DXers, without
proper credit.
It's the original information that can be of help to the DX
community, not Mr BB's cloning. 73 (Fabrizio Magrone, Forlì, Italy,
DX LISTENING DIGEST)
I would very much urge people like Jim Solatie not to "surrender"
with the threat caused by Mr. Bellabarba. I'd still encourage people
to share the information they get about the stations. There is a
depressingly fast decline in the flow of information on all the
mailing lists. (HCDX for example). The same with various DX
bulletins. I don't think all of it can be caused Mr. B. In my mind
Mr. B's action is more than anything a fine excuse for hiding the
valuable information from others. It should be a "duty" of a DXer to
share any information that helps another hobbyist to get a QSL or
catch a rare station. Pat Martin for example has shown the way. The
same guys that hide information shamelessly utilize the information
that is revealed by the "bold" people who are not afraid of Mr. B.
Besides, everybody can easily add in his automated Word document
report form: "NB. There's a guy called BELLABARBA who may approach
you with a fake reception report looking exactly like mine. He is a
bastard trying to destroy my hobby. Don't respond to him. It is a
kind of 'spam'". I think it should help a lot. It is not of too much
trouble. If it doesn't work, then let's try to figure out something
more effective together. Besides, if it is so easy to get a QSL for a
fake report, what is the value of QSL nowadays as a proof of
reception happened? Wouldn't it be better to just collect recordings
instead of teasing the already exhausted employees at the stations
with our reports? Instead of reports being interesting as in the
olden days, stations find them nowadays being just irritating and
causing extra work. 73, (Mauno Ritola, Finland, April 12, MW-DX via
DXLD)
I strongly agree with Mauno that the main effect of this "game" is
the fast decline in the flow of good and fresh information. You may
see that many DXers in this and other forums only alert colleagues
when a QSL of a new station is received. I am impressed, while DXing
in Italy, how impossible is to find real time information on tips,
what people are listening to, especially on mw. It reminds me of the
pre-Internet era, when you were looking forward to receiving foreign
publications just to check what had happened two weeks before the
same day, say, in Scandinavia or UK.
I haven't sent reports for years but I can understand people fully
involved in this side of the hobby. The other effect is the gradual
loss of credibility of some parts and bulletins, but this is "his"
problem, not ours (Rocco Cotroneo, Rio de Janeiro, April 12, ibid.)
|David H said: If I want to amass a huge QSL collection, I could
always troll ebay for them.|
David, although I'm sure that you didn't mean it that way, I find
your comment to be offensive. I have been collecting AM QSL cards
since about 1968. I have bought more than one rare, classic, unique,
or antiquated AM QSL card on eBay for the purpose of preserving them
in my collection. I proudly display many of them on my web sites as a
public service so that people who may have never seen them can do so.
When I do display them I clearly indicate if they were purchased by
me rather than being received in response to a reception report. In
many cases that is obvious because of the age of the cards. I'm not
trying to pass these off as anything other than what they are - a
valuable part of my collection of historical broadcasting items. By
collecting these cards I feel that I am doing my part to preserve
some of the history of AM radio and to pass it on to a younger
generation. AM QSL cards are already the rarity with most stations
today responding with a brief letter or less. I wonder how many of
the cards that I have purchased might have ended up in the trash or
otherwise lost to radio hobbyists if they weren't sold to a collector
such as myself. Your comment is the equivalent of saying that it is
wrong for a stamp collector to collect any stamp that wasn't mailed
to him on the outside of an envelope (Patrick Griffith, CBT,
Westminster, CO, USA NRC-AM, via DXLD)
Patrick: I'm sure Dave will speak for himself, but I think you've
missed his point. The point about buying eBay QSLs and amassing a
"collection" is the same as Bellabarba collecting QSLs by grabbing
program details from people's reports in DX magazines and the
Internet. You just make some mouse clicks and a while later you have
a QSL collection without hearing a station. No one said it was bad to
buy QSL's to preserve them. Nobody said it was bad to preserve
historical relics. I don't see the connection (Chuck Hutton, ibid.)
Patrick, Very well said! I have done the same. I have purchased a few
old QSLs cards like one from KEX in 1931 to protect them. Sometime
down the road when I get old I will donate my collection. This is a
piece of history as my whole collection is. I started QSLing in 1965
and have over 3,200 cards and letters on MW, SW, FM,TV, etc. There
have always been people to cheat at the hobby and there always will
be. As one DXer told me that these people are not DXers but
collectors of cards as they never have heard the station. 73s,
(Patrick Martin, Seaside OR, ibid.)
In my mind there is a sharp distinction between the collecting of
historic QSL cards for preservation as artifacts of the hobby and
what has been under discussion previously in this thread - where the
collector makes either no disclaimer or a very hazy one with the
intent of leaving the impression that their entire collection
resulted from their personal receptions. David was referring to the
former as practised by Bellabarba -- who so far as I know doesn't
purchase them - only obtains them by something slightly less than
mail fraud (Russ Edmunds, Blue Bell, PA, ibid.)
The difference between what you do and what David decries is that you
have no intention of passing off your collection as representing your
loggings. It's unfortunate that it's necessary to decry that practice
- it simply shouldn't happen - but it does. The ARRL has had to go to
considerable lengths to verify the validity of QSLs submitted for
their DXCC award; they've learned that if they don't, people *will*
try to submit forged and otherwise invalid verifications. Bizarre.
QSLs being tossed out by family members who don't understand the
history are one risk. I wonder how many verifications will literally
fade away?
I've begun scanning in my ham QSL collection. (12,210 cards, it's
going to take awhile!) Each .jpg is being saved with a filename
derived from the date, time, and frequency of the station, and their
callsign. (so hopefully I can retrieve them in the future...) The
scans are going to end up on a bunch of CD/Rs.
I've already had to use the brightness/contrast function in Gimp to
make faded ink legible - sometimes, on cards only 10-15 years old.
None of the cards are more than 30 years old.
Computer-printed cards seem to be particularly susceptible to fading.
While probably not relevant to BCB DX, cards where the information
was printed on an adhesive label are beginning to lose their labels.
(and hams have only been using adhesive labels for about 15 years)
Moral is, even if your verifications are stored in a safe place, they
may be deteriorating. More serious measures may be in order. And now,
I read where CD/Rs have a limited lifetime too..... (Doug Smith,
W9WI, ibid.)
Patrick, Sorry that my remarks offended you. That certainly was not
my intention. I don't disparage buying QSLs of historic or technical
significance, for the purpose of collecting or preserving them. I'm a
historian, after all, working on a project to preserve Thomas
Edison's personal papers and to make them widely available in print
and online to researchers and others interested in his life and
significance. I feel the same way about QSLs; they are a window into
the history of our odd but fascinating hobby. Trust me on this: some
PhD student will come along someday and write a history of this hobby
and the QSLs might be valuable sources. So please keep buying,
preserving, and publishing them. It's amazing what you can learn from
ephemera like QSLs. But, as others have pointed out, obtaining QSLs
under false pretenses is dishonest and is bad for the hobby
generally. I don't agree with the analogy you draw between QSLs and
stamp collecting. Writing an honest reception report takes effort--
patience, skill, and meticulous record-keeping. On the other hand,
anyone with the money can buy a certain stamp, and personal effort
expended in acquiring a stamp has little to do with its value. I
don't QSL much, but I do understand that the personal value of a QSL
is that it validates one's skill as a DXer. And that's exactly what
someone like Bellabarba demeans and cheapens (Dave Hochfelder, NJ,
ibid.)
For even more insight into this saga, especially the personality and
lifestyle of Carlo Bellabarba, click the link below to see the latest
edition of Glenn Hauser's "DX Listening Digest." Scroll to the bottom
of the page to see Dario Monferini's comments about Bellabarba, and I
defy you to read them all the way through without laughing out loud:
http://www.worldofradio.com/dxld3063.txt
To call Dario's logic "convoluted" is an understatement, and he's
being more than a little disingenuous when he expresses disdain
toward people who sell QSLs on eBay --- Dario was a multiple
unsuccessful bidder on some of my QSLs (like from Radio Euzkadi) that
I auctioned on eBay last year. Maybe Dario's lack of success (also
known as "parsimony") has altered his views somewhat. But his defense
of Bellabarba "web searching for TIPS" is just too effing lame for
words;
It ranks right up there with yesterday's op ed in the New York Times
by Eason Jordan of CNN in which he admitted CNN suppressed many
accounts of torture by Saddam Hussein's regime in exchange for being
allowed to keep the CNN Baghdad bureau open (the story is at
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/opinion/11JORD.html and makes you
wonder what "agreements" have been made to keep CNN bureaux in
Damascus, Havana, etc.).
Never underestimate the human capacity for self-deception! (Harry
Helms AK6C/7 Las Vegas, NV DM26, ibid.)
|Russ said: In my mind there is a sharp distinction between the
collecting of historic QSL cards for preservation as artifacts of the
hobby and what has been under discussion previously in this thread|
I do understand the difference. I'm just not sure that every other
reader of this list understands. David's statement didn't present
that difference. To me his statement appeared to lump everyone buying
QSLs on eBay together under a single derogatory umbrella. And that is
why it rubbed me the wrong way (Patrick Griffith, CBT, Westminster,
CO, USA, ibid.)
I've been reading this thread with both interest and disgust and have
had a couple of off the record discussions with a few of my close DX
friends as well. Anyhow, I'll cut to the chase and try to avoid using
language that is overly offensive. Anyhow, my rant begins.
Bellabarba is simply a lying, cheating piece of crap. His antics do
nothing but cheapen the entire hobby. Not all radio station personnel
are clueless enough to realize when they get a false or, in his case,
blatantly cheating report. As a result and over time, some radio
station personel get put off due to cheating reports and end up with
less interest in reading and QSLing any reports. Therefore, honest
DXers like myself and the rest of us here find it more difficult to
get QSLs.
While I have almost no interest in QSLing due to the time and effort
required, I certainly understand and respect my colleagues here who
do love to QSL. I've always thought that one is supposed to only QSL
stations that he DXed over the air. There is supposed to be some
honor associated with QSLing and Bellabarba shows no honor and only
lies.
It is disgusting to think that Monferini's or any other publication
would allow even the slightest implication from one of Bellabarba's
QSL of stations he didn't actually hear. This cheapens the entire
hobby, both from a QSL standpoint and from a logging standpoint. Even
the slightest implication that he actually heard (when it is certain
he didn't) the station he QSLed cheapens the hobby from a logging
standpoint.
Monferini should be totally ashamed of himself for not doing what it
takes to try to drive Bellabarba totally out of the hobby. I'd never
dream of publishing QSL info from a fraud.
Bellabarba is not the bad little boy to be made fun of and enjoyed
for his antics, but a disgusting, blatant fraud who should be driven
from the hobby once and for all. QSLing a station you haven't heard
is a bit like having sex with a prostitute. It feels good for a bit,
but in the end, you haven't really accomplished anything.
My apologies if my directness and language have offended anyone here,
but I've been disgusted by Bellabarba and a couple others like him
for nearly 30 years and I'm gagging anytime I open a post with his
name in it which isn't condemning him. 73 and let`s DX....KAZ (Neil
Kazaross, IL, ibid.)
Neil; I totally agree with you that someone like Bellabarba ruins the
hobby of QSLing. I think as DXers and QSLers we should shun people
like him. If he has no friends in the hobby, maybe he will go away. I
really doubt it as he as been cheating for many years. He did not get
30,000 QSLs overnight! People like him has always made me sick.
However we had them and always will. I had a friend who was an
autograph collector for many years. With e bay and the forged
autographs in recent years, it has ruined a lot of that hobby too.
If there is a buck to be made, someone will do it. Morality means
nothing to these types. 73s; Good DX to us all! (Patrick Martin,
Seaside OR, ibid.)
Bellabarba reminds me of the guy that gets a diploma for something
from a Diploma Mill, (without actually going to school). Or better
yet, the fellow that gets his 1st class (now General Class license)
from a quickie school, and could not figure out if the braid or the
center carries the signal on RG-8, or what a 4-400 is.
While I'm not going to get mad at Bellabarba, (my dad always said ...
choose your battles), I have warned a lot of stations about this
gentleman's practice, and told them that this is NOT how a serious
Dxer conducts business. I've also tried to tell my friends in
engineering how much it means to those of us that WORK at mailing in
a report.
Personally, I think too many QSLs end up hidden from people that
would get enjoyment from them. And I don't see any reason not to
show them off. If someone is a big enough **** that they would print
them and put them in their books (as their own), then so be it. It's
no different than a record collector getting a copy in MP3 or a
survey collector getting a photostat of a survey. There are those
that collect for the genuine aspect, and then there are those that
collect because it's something cool.
The one thing that cheeses me about some of these QSL preservation
groups is that a person like me does not have access to them unless
I'm willing to invest a couple hundred dollars for a road trip. I
wish we could all get our QSLs scanned and perhaps put them on one
page/site for all to see, or at least have a page with links to each
person's individual collection.
It's interesting to look at QSLs, even someone else's WCFL QSL from
October of 1970. I noted that they changed the color sometime between
when I got mine, and one showed up on the net (Fred Vobbe, NRC-AM via
DXLD)
Bingo! It's nice that a place like the University of Maryland's
library agrees to house a QSL collection, but exactly how many people
have College Park, MD, on their vacation itinerary? It'd make more
sense to donate those QSL collections to a place like the Museum of
Television and Radio, which operates in both Los Angeles and New
York, or to college libraries in locations like Las Vegas or Orlando
that have substantial tourist traffic. The odds of someone eventually
going to New York or Las Vegas for a vacation or business is much
higher than College Park! (Harry Helms AK6C/7 Las Vegas, NV DM26,
ibid.)
Or, Harry... just scan the darn things and put them on a web page, or
offer it as a volume in PDF form. Just give us some way of looking at
them other than the pompous response of drive to Maryland, or come to
my house to see them. Sometimes I get the feeling that these
preservation committees think of these collections of deceased DXer's
cards as their own property, as I've not seen any willingness to make
any compromises in providing views to anyone else but the locals in
their community (Fred Vobbe, ibid.)
Ditto. I swapped emails with them and found them to be uninterested
in listing whose collections were their property. I don't recall if
we discussed it, but they've done nothing electronic to provide
access. It's nice to know Ernie Cooper's veries are in our hands
instead of a preservation committee.
With the advent of cheap scanners and ubiquitous PC's, it makes more
sense for collections to be scanned and archived digitally. The hide-
them-in-a-library thing works fine for university people doing
university work, but I also don't understand how it helps the
hobbyists who'd like to see the QSL's. And amazingly, there seems to
be no way to know what collections are in storage at the U of M.
Perhaps the U of M could tell us, but that seems to be the only way.
(Chuck Hutton, WA, ibid.)
I don't believe that the Committee to Preserve Radio Verifications is
helping as much as they could. Were those QSL's made available on the
web, a lot more people could enjoy looking at them. I'd think a few
volunteers could scan a bunch of QSL's rapidly and put quite a nice
number of interesting old QSL's on the web, but it seems the CPRV
doesn't want to even list whose collections they have much less scan
some and put them on the web.
And I bet you a buck there are a few NRC'ers that would have scanned
some of the recently departed Roy Millar's incredible QSL collection.
I'd hope some of Ernie Cooper's QSL's would get scanned too - just
exactly where are they and what plans are there for them? (Chuck
Hutton, ibid.)
Ron Musco has them. Perhaps he could share them with the club and
scan some. If someone knows Ron, put the bug in his ear. Meanwhile,
if anyone has any QSLs that are digital, we should be making them
available for folks. (Fred Vobbe, ibid.)
That got me to thinking. . . . . I have a high res scanner, all sorts
of image editing software, and a CD burner. My hand is raised as
someone willing to scan some of the classic QSLs in the NRC's
possession and saving them to .GIF, .JPEG, .TIFF, or any other
popular image file format. Anybody else willing to volunteer? This
could be a worthwhile club project and make the scanned QSLs
available to a much wider audience (Harry Helms AK6C/7, Las Vegas, NV
DM26, ibid.)
Ditto for me. I'd love to scan a bunch of Ernie Cooper's QSL's - the
foreign ones naturally. Pat Martin told me a few days ago that he now
has a PC and scanner so in the future we'll see a few of his QSL's.
So what other collections are available? My meager collection of
maybe 1 dozen isn't worth talking about..... (Chuck Hutton, WA,
ibid.)
OK, this does sound like a top idea. Maybe they can be scanned and
set up a Powerpoint Presentation of QSLs along with details of the
reception. Just an idea. Regards (James Niven, ibid.)
Ya know...this is a topic worthy of some serious discussion at this
year's NRC convention. Perhaps some of us can formulate a plan to
make it a reality and present it. I'll help coordinate it. We'd want
to standardize on resolution, file format etc. Another angle is
creating a reference CD-Rom series of old veries for possible
distribution/sale (Wally Wawro, WFAA-TV, Dallas, TX, NRC-2003-Big D,
ibid.)
While this thread is running its course, I still wanted to comment
that I also feel this way. While UMd may be 'just 20 minutes from
Washington DC', the reality of it is that you'll need to first get to
Washington, then probably dedicate an entire day to the UMd trip --
assuming they are even open that day (these academic types like their
holiday time, as I have personally seen). Then of course, with the
lack of any publically known indexing, you just then walk into a room
with no identified search target, rather, just "start in this corner
and have at it", and maybe in 2 or 3 hours, you'll find what you were
hoping to see, but never knowing if you missed something even more
interesting because you ran out of time. (Assuming there is enough
material on hand to take that long to see, or else it would not
justify the trip.)
I think my plans now are to scan everything I think is of any
interest in my own collection, donate the .jpg files to NRC to post,
and then sell the paper on eBay.
This creates (1) unlimited access by anyone, in real-time, to the
CONTENT of each QSL, (2) brings in some useful income and (3)
relieves me of the responsibility of looking after all that paper,
most of which has just small sentimental value to me any longer. Then
when my own time comes, I have passed along this legacy without
hoping someone retrieves that stack of paper from wherever it is
stashed and goes to the effort to track down the repository. I don't
think I know anyone I could depend on to do that, at this point. In
my case, I am thinking of maybe 200 to 300 images, mainly my foreign,
and sunset skip, and a few GY receptions.
And I don't have to worry about it being crammed away in some
inaccessible, in any real sense, place, where there is little enough
interest that someone can't even be bothered indexing it and making
that index public. How disappointing that is.
I am sure there are those who will disapprove. Flame away. (don't
forget to add " /dev/null " to your message, hi)
On another topic ... I have a lot of tapes. Does anyone think of
archiving tapes? (Bob Foxworth, FL, ibid.)
Hi Bob: My tapes were approaching the point of being unusable as they
dried up. It was a real pain to play them as the lubricant was gone
from many, and it generated a screeching worse than nails on
chalkboard. I happily converted them all to CD, like others. Just
like I hope the club builds a jpg collection of QSL's, I hope others
are converting to CD and that NRC can build some digital libraries of
DXing history (Chuck Hutton, WA, ibid.)
I currently have about 80 of my AM QSL cards displayed on-line for
those who are interested in such things. They are grouped by year of
issue. The easiest way to view them is to use the link address in my
signature line (below) then select which series you wish to view.
Enjoy! (Patrick Griffith, CBT, Westminster, CO, USA, ibid.)
http://community.webtv.net/AM-DXer/
It's far from a comprehensive QSL collection, but I have a few of my
favorite QSL cards on my DX page
http://webhome.idirect.com/~aum108/dx.html When I created that page
in 1999, I decided to include only cards, not verie letters. For some
reason, my scanner always gives upper case filename extensions (.GIF
or . JPG) but I converted some of these to lowercase after saving
them. 73 (Mike Brooker, Toronto, ON, ibid.)
QSLs have "historic value" I guess. Maybe that is why people will pay
money for QSLs. The value we DXers put on our collection is
different. We have a story to tell on each QSL on how we got it. That
is of interest to us. I have a 66 year old brother that does not know
what a QSL is even though he knows about my hobby. Anything in radio
seems to have some historic value today. Top 40 charts, stickers,
pens, and other things from radio stations. If match book covers have
value I guess about anything can. I, like most Dxers, would never
sell my collection at any price. It shows what you have done in your
life. I will donate my collection when I pass on as others have done.
73s, (Patrick Martin, Seaside OR, NRC-AM via DXLD)
When I lived in Watuaga County, NC, in the early 70s, a ham friend
talked me into checking into the County Hunters Net on 20 meters and
activating this relatively rare county. I've been a faithful log
keeper for all my 40 years as a ham and as far as I know have a
record of every contact I've ever made. Not long after joining the
County Hunters Net, the QSLs started coming in. County Hunters will
send QSLs with your call on them and all contact information filled
out, all you do is sign it and send it back. I almost never got one
of their QSLs and that's very poor ham etiquette in my book. Those
folks got nothing back. I finally started stating on the air that if
you wanted my QSL, you'd better send me yours along with an SASE.
You'd think most hams would have some common sense. Several
individuals sent me QSLs for phantom QSOs. One YL was very insistent
and sent several follow up cards. I finally sent her a letter letting
her know she was not in my log and would not be getting a card. My
friend in the net told me she was not held in very high regard and
was considered a collector of phony QSLs in order to gather awards.
She is not alone and evidently this practice is rather common. On the
other hand, I see no problem with buying old QSLs from eBay. I'm a
postcard collector and consider old QSLs a part of history worth
preserving just like postcards. It's too bad the large QSL
collections aren't being shared on line (Rick Robinson, KF4AR,
Hendersonville, NC, NRC-AM via DXLD)
But that's standard accepted operating procedure for county hunters!
The mobile stations don't want cards from the stations they work, and
they don't want to foot the bill for printing tons of QSLs for their
mobile operations. What you received are known as "mobile response
cards" (MRCs) and have been a part of county hunting for decades. See
http://www.countyhunter.com/ for full information on county hunting
QSLing practices. I plan to activate some of the rarer Nevada
counties (like Esmeralda, White Pine, and Mineral, all with
populations under 5000 people) this year, and I'll certainly want
MRCs from anybody I work, and I won't particularly care to get a card
from anyone I work --- what good would they do me? The real
Bellabarba-type hams were guys like Don Miller, who falsely claimed
to operate from various countries he never visited, and some of the
more recent DXpeditions that apparently did not have legal authority
to operate from certain DX "countries" (but I'm still counting my
Kingman Reef card anyway --- they really were on Kingman, even if
illegally!!). (Harry Helms AK6C/7 Las Vegas, NV DM26, NRC-AM via
DXLD)
Most county hunters use a QSL service which accumulates QSLs for one
specific ham station and sends them in a group, enabling the mobile
ham who worked the county to QSL by return to the county hunter
bureau. It's been my experience as KA9SPA and a MARAC member that
most county hunters will follow the tenets of county hunter courtesy
and send their own QSL with the first contact. Some county hunters
QSL direct when they particularly need the county you've worked from,
and most who do that send an SASE. As in any group of hobbyists,
there is an occasional participant who breaks the rules or the
customs. County hunters, for the most part, try to make QSL'ing as
easy and inexpensive as possible (John Callarman, Krum TX, ibid.)
from DX LISTENING DIGEST 3-072, April
25, 2003 :
Discussion with Thomas Nilsson of SWB
The comments in DXLD resulted in a mail from me to Dario Monferini:
Thomas Nilsson: Is it really true that you support this guy and
publish his fake "qsl:s" in Play DX?? Please give me an honest answer
to this. Regards (Thomas Nilsson, SW Bulletin)
---------------------------
Dario Monferini: I don't edit the "confirmations" of Bellabarba in
PLAYDX... if you look at the past year bulletins... you will find a
special section called "BELLABARBA COLLECTION" this is a basic
documentation to know the radio stations who has replied to
Bellabarba, this is very important, cause these radio stations cleary
do not control the reports they receive. Bellabarba send to me the
photocopies so I have the real documentation... and sometimes there
are also NEGATIVE replies I naturally WRITE in the column if the
reply is NEGATIVE. Bellabarba is not interested if the reply is
negative or positive...he just want a reply...possibly with good seal
of the station....... Naturally I don't know which stations has not
replied to Bellabarba... also this list should be useful. In the
elencation usually I don't list FM stations based outside Europe,
this is cause such informations are of no real utilisation. I don't
see nothing of terrible to make these informations known, but I find
quite strange Mr. Martin Schoech in Germany in his QSL section put
these replies together replies of many famous Dxers.. but no one is
reacting.... WHY !!!??? Ask to Mr Schoech to cancel all the fake QSL
of Bellabarba he has put in list.... Surely Mr. Schoech will
reply.... these are informations usefuls.... He has also done a page
devoted to Mr.Bellabarba.... but NO ONE has ever protested or done
something to stop the Bellabarba activity..... I guess if I edit the
list of the collection of Bellabarba replies under separate section
in PLAYDX I am doing the same "service" Mr. Schoech is doing... or
may be only him is allowed to do this "service" ? Thanks for your
message. Best regards Dario
----------------------------
Thomas Nilsson: I don't agree at all that it is important to list
fake QSL´s. It is the responsibility to all editors to reject such
items in their bulletins.
I hope you will in the future make all efforts you can to condemn
this type of QSL collecting. It is a sick man who send reception
reports for stations he has not heard. It is even harder to
understand that you or somebody else bothers to make any type of
records of such material. Please stop this silly game. Regards.
--------------------------
Dario Monferini: I think we live in a planet where everyone is free
to have his opinion, even if a majority is against that opinion.
However I don't understand why no one is blaming the Martin Schoech
attitude to put the Bellabarba informations in his good column...
question is why many are only acting against PLAYDX ... ??? I send
the informations by file to Martin ... and he says every time THANKS
... To stop Bellabarba attitude...is not so easy ... you mind ...
just don't tell to anyone... well but this will not solve the
problem... I think Bellabarba is buying every year the European FM
Handbook to Finland ... and they are happy to sell a copy to
Bellabarba and to get the money of Bellabarba... that money is
naturally welcome... even if Bellabarba will utilize that book to
send thousands of fake reports... so Thomas.. why you don't write to
Finnish friends asking STOP TO SELL THE BOOK to Mr. Bellabarba ???
(paradoxally is JIM SOLATIE one of the compiler of the book....)
Another argument: I may find in the replies collected by Bellabarba ,
some items usefuls for get replies from stations, well if I edit them
without his name as source are they okay ?? and if I edit as coming
from his source .. they are bad...??? I edit one time per year the
info coming from Bellabarba ... ONE TIME !! not every issue... and I
edit cleary stating they are COLLECTION OF BELLABARBA.... The matter
is if this show cleary ,many times the replies coming from some Latin
American stations are done quite automatically ... this make also the
other replies of no value ?... so this and only this is the point...
this hurt the mayority of the listeners... (a minority is sending
very very poor reports....)
Our hobby is becomed very different from the beginning... now
everyone try to BUY the confirmations.... TIN is visiting Peru and
Bolivia getting QSLs from people who has given to him ... original
reports and..... people is able to do travels just to visit stations
and try in all ways a reply to the unreplied reports.... people is
sending 30 follow ups ... people is just doing everything to get a
verification.... I remember in the 1980's Bellabarba was member of
UMEA DX KLUB... and they used to edit all his fakes replies, but
after I reacted and said stop cause they are all fakes... they put
out Bellabarba... and I do the same from PLAYDX for 12 years... well
in 1992 I discovered in one of my travels to south america... many
fakes reports from Bellabarba... even some stations I visited in
Argentina...and Venezuela and Colombia...supposed I was Mr.
Bellabarba.... this hurted me very much... and so I realized the
isolation of Bellabarba was of no real result... he was going on....
So I contacted him and requested to get photocopies of the replies...
and he sent MANY....
Only an international reaction with hundreds of messages to him may
have a result... But as far as I may see... everyone is just
preferring to make silent this story... better to put a stone... or
close the door.. and dream everything in our hobby is pure and
clean.... Regards, Dario [sic]
-----------------------------
This resulted in a mail sent to the Martin Schoech website:
I had a mail discussion with Dario Monferini asking him to stop
listing QSL´s from Bellabarba. He says in a letter that you have such
QSL's in your listings. I hope this is not true. I can understand you
have a site with only Bellabarba stuff warning others to do so, but I
can't understand why such QSL´s will end up in any decent listings.
Please give me a note if this statement from Dario Monferini is true.
Regards, Thomas Nilsson, editor of SWB (No reaction yet has been
heard. /ed) (all: SW Bulletin Apr 20 via DXLD)
--------------------------
QSLing BELLABARBA
Martin Schöch: Hello Thomas, yes, the statement from Dario is correct.
In 97 (?) I started my special page about the Bellabarbas, one pages
with copies of his reports (I run a pirate radio drop box, so I get
some of these) and one page with his QSL logs from Play DX.
In Dec 2002 I redesigned my QSL info pages, they are now based upon an
excel-work-sheet. Now it was too much work to keep a separate list for
the Bellabarbas. Thus all information is now in the same place/in the
same lists.
Advantage a - less work for me.
Advantage b - much more interest/discussions about 'such
techniques' from other DXers and among other DXers
Advantage c - I don't like the image that QIP is the final judge
what contributor is correct and which isn`t (there are several
other DXers mentioned on the Bellabarba page). When seeing the
results (logs and copies) everyone has to come to his own
conclusions (at least this was what we were demanding from the
US before the Iraq war)
Point d - it`s equal to the Bellabarbas if I publish the logs or
not, they don`t do it for the public I believe
Further discussions are welcome ! Yours Martin
--------------------------
Reply from Thomas Nilsson, SWB: Martin! Thanks for mail. I will with
pleasure reply to your views. Fake QSL:s upset the whole DX-world. QSL
cards are by no means like collecting postcards. A QSL card is a proof
of listening and reporting the station.
Thus it is extremely important as editor to at least try to sort out
and not publish material from people that by most DX-ers are known or
even regarded as unserious. In my opinion no listings at all
containing this type of material shall be published.
You make it very easy to say it gives you less work and that you are
not the judge. But as editor you have that responsibility. With the
help of Excel it is easy to use the sheets as a database and sort out
the fake material. You also have to think twice about the intention
with your QIP site. What is the effort worth if other people have a
negative view of your site and never pay a visit?
So please leave all the unserious people out in the cold by not
publish this type of material. There is absolutely nothing positive in
referring to such people. It will also create much less work for you
and your site will recover respect again. Regards Thomas Nilsson,
editor of SWB
------------------
Reply from Martin Schöch, May 01-2003:
Hello Thomas, since it is a holiday today I have the time to write to
you. Yesterday I updated The 'Giovanni Bellabarba' QSL Page at
http://www.schoechi.de/bellabar.html I created a special page where
all the latest discussions from the lists and DXLD have been added.
(|Thus it is extremely important- ) It 'should be' a proof.
Unfortunately it isn't any longer. See the new story 'Relative value'
by H. Klemetz at the Bellabarba-page.
(|Easy to say it gives you less work- ) I have of course ethical
standards, but I think in the case of Bellabarba (and other suspects)
my task is fulfilled by the webpage with the copies of their
'reports'.
As far as I know I'm the only one who ever did something (establishing
public attention by making a webpage is something I guess) 'against'
him, all other knew him and said something about him but did not do
something.
(|With the help of Excel it is easy- ). Yes, that's true.
(|What is the effort worth if other- ) I changed the layout of my
pages in December 2002 and with the layout change I added the
Bellabarba QSL-logs. Since January 2003 I had more than 7000 visitors
(acc. to the agecounter), I guess including several visits of the same
person etc. that are perhaps 500 different people. No-one complained
about that the logs have been added.
From all these discussions in last weeks I only got two letters, one
from you and one from Italian who said 'fun to read about Bellabarba'.
(| So please leave all the unserious people out in the cold…) So until
now I did not note any other critical comments about my site
in mails to me or in the mailing lists. As it seems the either the
content of my pages is more important than Bellabarba or the readers
do not care if these logs are there or not.
(|You also have to think twice about the intention with your QIP
site…). The aim of QIP is not the question. The aim of the Bellabarba-
page is the question. And the 'public attention' is still the best way
to cope with such things, better than forbidding or hiding something.
Especially the fact that no-one wrote to me (supporting either me or
you) shows that the question if-or if not is not so important. The
conflict about Bellabarba has been going on between 'Norden' and
'Italy'.
We others simply watch. And I guess that some Nordic DXers take DXing
too seriously (I never saw a list of QSLs about 'first one from
Germany' but a lot of 'first from Sweden') and that some Italian DXers
do not take it seriously enough (it makes me crazy when they all write
kHz or kHz but not kHz). That`s all for today, all the best to you
from Martin [Schöch] (all: SW Bulletin May 4 via DXLD) There was
additional discussion from Rolf Wikström in Swedish, but I hesitate to
ask Thomas Nilsson to translate it all (gh)
--------------------------
QSLing BELLABARBA
There is no conflict about Bellabarba between 'Norden' and 'Italy'.
The conflict, if one must use this word, is between serious DXers and
fake-QSL collectors and their supporters. Regardless of sex, race,
nationality or religion. I don't understand Mr. Schoech's
discrimination between Norden, Italy and 'we others' - or should we go
deeper into the racist mud and say Italian Spaghetti, Norden Herings
and German Kartoffeln? That's nonsense. Nordic DXers are highly
respected and the DX tradition of Nordic countries is recognized
everywhere. I usually write kHz, and so do my Italian friends, despite
being among 'they all'. Some German DXers made and make mistakes
sometimes - like everybody else. So what? Please stop this racist
drift, or Bellabarba will have won at least one match. The divide must
be between serious DXers and morons like Bellabarba and their friends.
Regardless, I repeat, of sex, race, nationality or religion. Thanks
and best greetings, (Enrico Oliva, Milan Italy, DX LISTENING DIGEST)
Yes, I think we have had enough of that (gh) [in DXLD 3-078]
--------------------------
QSLing BELLABARBA
Glenn! Dario Monferini has asked me to translate these comments from
RW. Rolf Wikström (and also I) are not interested in deeper discussion
with those two people because both he and I know it will lead to a dead end.
Re Dario Monferini reply about Bellabarba, comment by Rolf Wikström.
The meaning with RW comment is that there is not so much to do with
Bellabarba himself but you have to deal with the publisher, DM. ARC
has ceased exchange and so must also SWB.
I protested loudly on their site when Italy was elected chairman for
the European DX union. There were heavy arguments from Italy with
several rude mails. The positive was the ability to explain what DX is
about for three Italian DX-ers who had the guts to take a discussion.
The others were never heard of later. They had no clue at all what DX
is about! I also learned that there are several Bellabarbas in Italy.
DM says that there is nothing to do about Bellabarba`s cheating. Of
course there is! He can do it himself at once, stop publishing fake
QSLs! If not, boycott Dario! If Bellabarba gets no publicity of what
he is doing he will be tired and go into another business to continue
his cheating. [? It is claimed BB is not interested in publicity - gh]
The problem with a Bellabarba in a hobby is that he destroys the hobby
totally. Dario`s childish explanation is that the station replies also
for a wrong report so why at all bother to write correct reports. Of
course I agree that certain stations send out QSL without controlling
them. But here it is always up to each DX-er to decide the value of
such verifications and the honest DX-er always has his tape recording
to relate to.
The big problem with Bellabarba is sending out thousands of fake
reports all over the world. Some stations do not control and then he
gets reply. BUT, what happens at the stations really checking the
reports? First of all no reply and secondly Bellabarba has completely
destroyed the possibilities for an honest DXer when he sends his
report. The station thinks directly that the next report coming from
Europe also is a fake one! And if Dario continues to publish such fake
QSLs there will certainly be several Bellabarbas, believe me! At the
end you can also wonder what relation Dario has with Bellabarba.
Regards, (WIK/Rolf Wikström, Sweden, translated by SWB editor
Thomas Nilsson) [in DXLD 3-080]
SHORTWAVE BULLETIN 1510, May 4, 2003
Ytterligare kommentar från Rolf Wikström ang Bellabarba.
http://www.hard-core-dx.com/swb/1510.htm
Här har vi alltså ytterligare en Dario Monferini som egoistiskt drar
nytta av Bellabarbas fuskrapporter! Vad jag förstår så är inte Martin
Schoechs någon dx-are utan enbart en datortönt utan förankring i
verkligheten som vill ha läsare på sin hemsida. Dessa människor ökar
ständigt på nätet och jag vill ju säga att jag hade stora
förhoppningar från början på att internet skulle bli en framkomlig
väg till att få direktkontakt t.ex. till LA-stationer, men tack vare
dessa människor som vill synas på nätet så är det helt omöjligt.
Here have we thus further a Dario Monferini as selfishness am leaving
utility of Bellabarbas fuskrapporter! What I see so is nots Martini
Schoechs any dx are devoid exclusively a datortönt devoid anchorage
in accomplishment as shall had readers on its ghastly. These folk am
growing eternally on nätet and I will ju say that self had superb
hope from beginning on that Internet should become a passable ways to
that poll direktkontakt t.ex. to ALLOW TO - station , but cheers
article these folk as shall be seen on nätet so is the wholly
impossible.
De skapar en hemsida där man lägger in alla e-mailadresser som
överhuvudtaget publiceras i dx-pressen och den som är duktigast att
samla e-mailadresser får flest läsare på sin hemsida. Följden av det
är ju att detta är guld för virusmarodörer och reklamfolk där man har
hundratals av e-mailadresser att skicka sitt skit till!
They am creating a ghastly there husband am inlaying all e
mailadresser as överhuvudtaget appear in dx - media and the as is
capable that rally e mailadresser sheep most readers on its ghastly.
Succession of the is ju that this is gold for virusmarodörer and
commercial there husband had a hundred thousand of e mailadresser
that send sits dirt to!
Ett exempel bara, Dumrese-listan! Den är alltså tillverkad av en
landsman till Martin Schoechs (eller är det han själv?) och jag kan
garantera att när e-mailadressen publicerats på denna lista så är det
kört ! Har själv försökt på flera adresser i denna lista och svaret
är för det mesta att denna adress inte finns. Nej, undra på det!
One example only Dumrese - list! The is thus fabrication by an
compatriots to Martini Schoechs ( ors is the himself? ) and self able
vouch that when e mailadressen published on that enumeration so is
the gland! Had herself tried on several addresses in that enumeration
and answer is for the mostly that that address nots find. Nos ,
wonder at that!
Svaret till dig från denne tysk, Thomas, var ju att han publicerar
Bellabarbas QSL på sin hemsida för att få igång en debatt. Egentligen
skulle man inte besvara sån´t här trams. Herregud! Vi dx-are har
pratat och diskuterat om Bellabarba nu i trettio år och det blir
alltså ingen ändring av hans fuskrapporter! Hans största medhjälpare
för att kunna fortsätta med sitt fuskande är alltså Dario Monferini
och Martin Schoechs som alltså dessutom ser till att man själv tjänar
på att få läsare av sin hemsida på internet. Och tyvärr så finns det
även idag många hemsidor (och dx-bulletiner!) som vill skryta med att
de fått "information" från Dario eller läst informationen på
internet.
Answer to yourself from latter German Thomas , each ju that he
publishes Bellabarbas QSL on its ghastly for that poll igång a
debate. Actually should husband nots replies sån´t here tread.
monsieur Wes dx are had chat and discussed if Bellabarba now in
thirty year and the am becoming thus none modification of his
fuskrapporter! His main medhjälpare for that kunna continue with sits
cheat is thus Dario Monferini and Martini Schoechs as thus moreover
am seeing to that husband herself am earning on that poll readers of
its ghastly on Internet. And alas so find the also today many
hemsidor ( and dx - bulletin! ) as shall boast with that they gotten
" data " from Dario ors was reading information on Internet.
Som jag tidigare skrev så är det alltså inte mycket att göra åt
själva "Bellabarba" om han nu överhuvudtaget finns fysiskt utan
istället försöka stoppa de som publicerar hans fuskande. Denna
Bellabarba har alltså kunnat existera under trettio år tack vare att
det alltid funnits redaktörer i dx-pressen som publicerat hans fusk.
Dessutom, som jag också tidigare sagt, så skapar detta publicerande
av hans fuskande nya Bellabarbas över hela världen, speciellt idag
via internet!
As self olds groin so is the thus not much that make ate others
Bellabarba " if he now överhuvudtaget find physical devoid istället
attempt put they as publishes his cheat. That Bellabarba had thus
kunnat exist wonder thirty year cheers article that the always
funnits editors in dx - media as published his cheat. Moreover , as
self also olds said , so am creating this publish of his cheat nya
Bellabarbas over heal the world , especially today via Internet!
WIK/Rolf Wikström
Press release by Play-DX - Aug 2003
QSLing, BELLABARBA
``Following to the many polemics opinions expressed everywhere concerning the Bellabarba QSL-ing policy, I wish here clarify the personal position of the DX-editor of Play-DX, Dario Monferini, has been always against this kind of unpolite activity, cause Mr. Bellabarba is manipulating informations coming from other sources, sending fake reports.
For this reason I admit, after 25 years of personal tentatives to find a positive solution to this matter, to have totally failed in this `mission` and to have done remarkable problems and damns to the worldwide dx-ing family. I agree all the DX- ers sending serious reports have all the rights don`t see rare radio stations verified in a fake way by Mr. Bellabarba in a total unpolite and foolish way to get a reply in all the ways, even changing the original datas (one week before) showing a `scientific` attitude but also a very unacceptable activity.
The next autumn Play-DX will do a more descriptive article about these matters, to put a final word on this abominable story of Mr. Bellabarba, 30 years acting against the worldwide family of the radio listeners``
(PRESS RELEASE FROM THE BOARD OF PLAY-DX, Dario Monferini, editor in chief Play-DX Italy via SW Bulletin Aug 10 via
DXLD 3-144)